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Author Topic: Let's talk about Count  (Read 7355 times)

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LastFootnote

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Let's talk about Count
« on: August 31, 2012, 12:34:20 pm »
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Now that many of us have had the chance to play with Dark Ages cards, let's talk about Count, one of the most complex Dominion cards yet.

One of the things that stands out the most to me is that it's pretty bad when you're fighting discard attacks. If you discard two cards or put a card back onto your deck, you're left with very little to work with. Gaining a Copper just makes you more vulnerable to future discard attacks.

It seems to work well with normal or large hand sizes, though. Early on you can put back a good card from your hand and trash the rest (or gain a Copper and trash your entire hand). Mid-game you can put back or discard, depending, and use the +$3 to buy Gold and/or Provinces. Late game you can discard/gain Copper and choose to gain Duchies. Quite versatile.

I admittedly don't have much more to say about the card just yet, but I was hoping to hear about other players' experiences. Thoughts?
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2012, 01:07:40 pm »
+2

During the leak, I basically played a DoubleCount game (there were no Villages) where if I drew two, I used one to put the other back, and either got +$3 or gained a Duchy.  It's quite awesome.  I think it's the new Jack.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2012, 02:15:48 pm »
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It's powerful, yes, but I actually think BoM is going to be the standout card here. However, Count is up there in terms of power $5's. I was quite surprised actually how often I used the Duchy gain ability.
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jonts26

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2012, 02:23:14 pm »
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Count I find to be an interesting card. I think it's rather poor in the early game except maybe as an opening on a 5/2 split. It's decent enough in the midgame, but really shines in the endgame when you have green to discard or you can take a duchy (or both!). I think it won't be a power $5, but it will be servicable most of the time. I think it will be truly powerful with larger hand sizes however. So in any sort of good draw engine the discard doesnt hurt or you can save a card for next turn. The trashing will help early game, the money will help mid and late game, and the duchy gain will still be good late as well.
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jsh357

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 02:26:38 pm »
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I have found this card very awkward to play earlygame (initially I thought it was going to basically be Chapel-level good on 5/2) if the shuffle makes it so.  As jonts said, it improves late game.  Discard 2/topdeck 1 + $3/gain Duchy are excellent to have, especially in Province games.  I guess it's not as elite as I initially thought, but still pretty good most of the time. 
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Davio

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2012, 02:42:44 pm »
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I like using the "trash your hand" ability when there is a card in my hand with a nice "on-trash" ability, like Cultist. Cultists are only so-so when the ruins run out, so I try to trash them aggressively.

This way, you can get rid of some Estates or Coppers and Outpost yourself in the process.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2012, 02:46:26 pm »
+2

I need to try this with Duke/Duchy.
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Davio

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2012, 02:52:30 pm »
+3

I need to try this with Duke/Duchy.
Include Duchess, Baron and Nobles and it'll be a swell ballroom party!
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brokoli

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2012, 03:10:38 pm »
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Count seems really not that good for me : the "trash your hand" ability is weaker than I expected (you often trash no more than two "bad" cards). Early game it seems really weak. But I agree, late game it's a very strong card : especially to gain duchies. I really doubt that this is the new jack.
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Kirian

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2012, 08:12:50 pm »
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In a recent game against the AI, I grabbed a Count as my first $5, used in twice to topdeck on and trash three, used it once for the $3, then sacrificed it to Salvager.
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DG

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2012, 10:14:31 pm »
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Against the Goko bots I did manage to make a fast golden bishop deck using a count. I wouldn't recommend it though, chapels are cheaper :).
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jonts26

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2012, 10:15:23 pm »
+4

I want to make a golden deck with only band of misfits.
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Davio

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2012, 03:58:50 am »
+2

I want to make a golden deck with only band of misfits.
But what if your opponent buys every Bishop?
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aaron0013

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2012, 12:58:11 pm »
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Definitely going to be good with alt. VP strategies. The copper for gardens, the duchy for dukes and silk roads. Also the +$3 almost guarantees enough to buy gardens and silk roads.  Furthermore, the discard doesn't hurt nearly as much when half your hand is green ;)
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brokoli

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2012, 01:14:35 pm »
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Definitely going to be good with alt. VP strategies. The copper for gardens, the duchy for dukes and silk roads. Also the +$3 almost guarantees enough to buy gardens and silk roads.  Furthermore, the discard doesn't hurt nearly as much when half your hand is green ;)

True, but the huge problem is that it cost 5$. Too expensive for gardens and silk road games, and same price as duke and duchies... (though Cache-Duke is a decent strategy)
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aaron0013

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2012, 01:50:20 pm »
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Yeah, it will be interesting to see if it is worth it to go out and buy the count when you get $5. I suppose earlier on it could be a pretty big boost.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2012, 01:52:29 pm »
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Count will probably be good on 5/2 and with alt VP strategies, but other than that, terminal Gold with a penalty is pretty unspectacular compared to what a lot of other 5s do.

Gaining a Copper just makes you more vulnerable to future discard attacks.
How does gaining Copper make you more vulnerable to future discard attacks?

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One Armed Man

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2012, 02:40:09 pm »
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Gaining a Copper just makes you more vulnerable to future discard attacks.
How does gaining Copper make you more vulnerable to future discard attacks?
I like to use Moneylender over Salvager in multiplayer Militia games. That way, I can get rid of the Coppers of my deck and still have Estates to discard.
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aaron0013

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2012, 02:40:41 pm »
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Count will probably be good on 5/2 and with alt VP strategies, but other than that, terminal Gold with a penalty is pretty unspectacular compared to what a lot of other 5s do.

I was thinking more along the lines of gaining the duchy in most cases.
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brokoli

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2012, 02:48:56 pm »
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Well, I was wrong, sometimes the "trash your hand" ability is very strong. See here :

Quote
---------- Samy: turn 8 ----------
Samy - plays Tactician
Samy - draws Spy, Silver, Hovel, Copper, Copper

---------- Samy: turn 9 ----------
Samy - duration Tactician
Samy - shuffles deck
Samy - draws Overgrown Estate, Silver, Copper, Copper, Necropolis
Samy - plays Spy
Samy - draws Count
Samy - places Spy on top of deck
Conqueror Bot - discards Silver
Samy - plays Count
Samy - discards Silver
Samy - discards Silver
Samy - trashes Hovel, Copper, Copper, Overgrown Estate, Copper, Copper, Necropolis
Samy - applies when you trash ability of Overgrown Estate

Samy - draws Spy
Samy - shuffles deck
Samy - draws Spy, Silver, Tactician, Spy, Count
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 02:51:33 pm by brokoli »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2012, 04:04:42 pm »
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Count will probably be good on 5/2 and with alt VP strategies, but other than that, terminal Gold with a penalty is pretty unspectacular compared to what a lot of other 5s do.

I was thinking more along the lines of gaining the duchy in most cases.

If you're not doing a super-early greening strategy, +$3 is usually preferable to gaining a Duchy. +$3 gets you Gold instead of Silver+Duchy, or Province instead of 2xDuchy. So Count for the Duchy ability is only going to be better than a terminal Gold in situations where you want a lot of Duchies. This is probably going to be in Duke or Silk Road or Tunnel games, or really weak BM games. But if there are no alt VPs, I don't think this is a winning strategy compared to most of the other 5s.

To clarify my point, the goodness of Count comes from the trash or Duchy options. The $3 option is a nice filler so that the card is not dead when you're done trashing or so that you can reach up for a Province when you have the chance in a green rush game. If you're not in a situation when the trashing or Duchy gain will be particularly strong, you can probably find a better 5 to buy.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 04:06:49 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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Loschmidt

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2012, 03:32:35 am »
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Definitely going to be good with alt. VP strategies. The copper for gardens, the duchy for dukes and silk roads. Also the +$3 almost guarantees enough to buy gardens and silk roads.  Furthermore, the discard doesn't hurt nearly as much when half your hand is green ;)

True, but the huge problem is that it cost 5$. Too expensive for gardens and silk road games, and same price as duke and duchies... (though Cache-Duke is a decent strategy)

I think it's definitely worth taking the time to get $5 for your first Count. The Count-supported alt-VP strategy isn't a rush, its a slog. Count's copper-gaining and top-decking abilites really help you long term in consistently hit that $5/$4 mark. Furthermore by being able to gain Duchies while you're still buying your primary alt-VP you are creating a relatively high scoring alt-VP deck. Your opponent can't necessarily rely on just provinces to beat you.
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Jive Junkie

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2012, 08:19:38 pm »
+1

Count seems exceptional in curse-heavy junk games. Look at the following scenarios:

a) You draw Count with 3-4 junk cards (curses, estate, copper). Top-deck your one good card (or a Copper) and trash the rest. Or gain a Copper and trash them all.

b) You've bought a decent amount of terminal actions because your deck is bloated and want to see those actions more than once in a blue moon. One ends up in your hand with Count. Top-deck it and use Count however you want, while not wasting a play of your other terminal.

c) Your average card value is well less than $1 due to cursing or Swindler or alt VP gaining or whatever. Count's drawback of gaining a Copper now increases average value of deck, and you can use the benefit as you see fit.

d) You draw Count with treasure that's $3 shy of whatever power or VP card could help you out. Take the least painful drawback, and Count becomes your terminal Gold.

e) The bloatfest game is winding down, curses are gone, and one other cheap pile is almost gone, too. You're in VP-gaining mode, and lookie here: free Duchy gains until the cows come home! If you only have $2 left (for an Estate) with the other money in your hand, Count ends up being like a +$5 +Buy. And the drawback of gaining a Copper becomes even less significant if you may never see it again.

f) It's a Gardens game, in which case gaining Copper is a benefit, and gaining Duchy is awesome. Probably slows down end of game if the other player is not going Gardens though, since running out Duchy is hard. But in the mirror, Count rocks whenever you can afford it (adds 3 VP, 2 extra cards to your deck!)

In boards that are not massive slogs, I suspect Count's value drops significantly, but when your decks are filled with crap, you can count on Count.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:22:02 pm by Jive Junkie »
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jotheonah

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 11:08:50 pm »
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I was surprised by how handy the mass-trash feature was. You can save one card by top decking or two by discarding, and then trash everything else, even if you have a million cards in hand. 

So if you're building a moneyless deck, you get all your actions out of your hand by playing them, and then you can trash your entire starting deck in one fell swoop. Even better than Forge, because you don't have to worry about making the math work so you don't accidentally gain something you don't want.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Let's talk about Count
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2012, 11:20:10 pm »
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Just wanted to say that upon reading this thread title, my mind immediately went "let's talk about Count, baby, let's talk about you and me..."
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