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Author Topic: Opening Estate  (Read 4367 times)

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AJD

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Opening Estate
« on: August 29, 2012, 02:06:56 am »
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Say, I guess with Dark Ages we're way more likely to see someone buying Estate on a 5/2 opening than we're historically accustomed to, aren't we?
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ftl

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 02:15:34 am »
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$5/estate is the new $5/nothing, with Shelters in. No downside to doing that, is there?
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Cuzz

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 02:25:44 am »
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Only reason not to do that that I can think of is if there's a victory card you want earlyish anyway and might hope to buy after the reshuffle with Hovel in hand (Tunnel, Island, eg)
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Cuzz

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 02:27:28 am »
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Though Island is worse with Shelters anyway.
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PSGarak

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 02:45:15 am »
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$5/estate is the new $5/nothing, with Shelters in. No downside to doing that, is there?

Of course there's a downside--this is Dominion, a game composed mostly of edge cases glued together by a small handful of rules. And this is a forum dedicated to finding them!

The three big cases where a Hovel would be superior are where you would prefer a junk $1 over a junk $2, where having a card with type "Victory" would be problematic, and Cornucopia cards that care about variety. The first case is fairly easy to cover: Upgrading into a choice $2, having spare change for a Forge, leaving a target for Swindler that would net you a free Poor House, etc. The second is a bit more difficult, since most cards that care about card type would have you prefer a VP card over a card with none of the 3 core types. The only case I can think of is your opponent's attacks: I would rather turn up a Hovel than an Estate if I'm getting hit by Rabble or Jester or Bureaucrat. The third case is obvious: Fairgrounds, Menagerie, Harvest.

There's also an edge edge case, where you do want to trash your Hovel, but not on your opening hand, because there's a combo you could do later in the game. The major example would be to provoke Market Square's reaction. It's possible that you would also want a mid-game trash in order to shrink your hand size for a draw card like Watchtower or Library... since Hovel only triggers on-buy, this would require buying an alt-VP card from the Black Market deck. Theoretically possible, but in no way worth planning for.
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O

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 03:05:14 am »
+2

...why buy the estate and deny yourself the opportunity to trash the hovel on a better VP card? unless there's like apprentice or something.
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Synthesizer

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 04:11:08 am »
+1

...Upgrading into a choice $2...

All the other stuff you mention seems correct, but this not so: if there is a $2 you want, you wouldn't have opened 5/nothing regardless of estate vs. shelter; you would have just bought the $2 you want. This is still a more logical approach than buying nothing now, and hoping your upgrade and hovel collide on a future turn. If you want more than 1 of the $2 card (you can't have enough Pearl Divers! :p) you can buy one now and then upgrade into it later. If you don't want 2 of them, then still do this, you're not forced to play them (barring a few, what are they called, oh yeah "edge cases" :)), you double the probability of having it in hand when you need it, and not playing it makes it no more a dead card than the hovel is (again, barring "edge cases").

So except for this nitpicked-split-hair: For the rest: good call!
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2012, 06:34:48 am »
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...why buy the estate and deny yourself the opportunity to trash the hovel on a better VP card? unless there's like apprentice or something.
Looks like you answered your own question :)
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Squidd

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2012, 08:22:58 am »
+1

The only case I can think of is your opponent's attacks: I would rather turn up a Hovel than an Estate if I'm getting hit by Rabble or Jester or Bureaucrat.

Jester and Bureaucrat I get, but Rabble is going to treat Hovel and Estate identically. It doesn't look for Victory cards to leave behind, it looks for Actions and Treasure to discard.
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AJD

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2012, 09:39:46 am »
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The only case I can think of is your opponent's attacks: I would rather turn up a Hovel than an Estate if I'm getting hit by Rabble or Jester or Bureaucrat.

Jester and Bureaucrat I get, but Rabble is going to treat Hovel and Estate identically. It doesn't look for Victory cards to leave behind, it looks for Actions and Treasure to discard.

Fortune Teller, on the other hand, will pass over Hovel but stop on Estate.
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TheMathProf

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Re: Opening Estate
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2012, 10:27:46 am »
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I tried opening $5/Estate on a Dark Ages board that had Baron in it as the only source of +Buy, so I really wanted to make Baron work.  It didn't.
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