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AJD

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Paradigm shifts
« on: August 29, 2012, 01:25:27 am »
+3

So, the thread <a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3880.0">"What card design rules are left?"</a> in the Dark Ages forum got me thinking. It's not just Dark Ages that has broken rules that we might have thought were fundamental design principles of Dominion. Every expansion has violated fundamental-seeming rules of how the game works. I think it might be interesting to look at how our understanding of the possibilities of Dominion has changed with each expansion, in terms of the rules that were broken. (Rules that seemed really fundamental are in bold.)

Intrigue:
Victory cards are dead in your hand.
Every card is exactly one of Action, Victory, Treasure, or Curse.
The content of everyone's deck is in principle public information (you can remember what they've gained and trashed).
The costs of cards do not change.
The effect of playing a card is independent of the circumstances in which is it played.
There are no Kingdom Treasure cards.

Seaside:
The game includes no components other than cards.
All cards in play are discarded at the end of your turn.
The effect of playing a card takes place immediately when it is played.
The only card types are Action, Treasure, Victory, Curse, Attack, and Reaction.
Cards that belong to a player do not exist for the long term outside the player's deck and discard pile.
Once a card has been gained, it cannot return to the supply.
You cannot take two consecutive turns.

Alchemy:
The only form of currency needed to buy cards is coins.
The basic cards in the supply are the same in every game.
A Treasure card produces the same amount of money every time it's played.
On your turn, you choose what cards to play, what to buy, etc.
The player who buys a card is the one who gains it.

Prosperity:
The basic cards in the supply are deterministically set by the Kingdom cards in use.
The only effect of Treasure cards is to give money to spend.
The effect of Treasure cards is independent of the order in which they're played.
Reaction cards react to Attacks being played.
Victory points only exist in the form of cards.
If you have enough money to buy a card in the supply during your Buy phase, you may do so.
You can't remove cards from your discard pile until your next reshuffle.
Buying a card has no effect other than gaining it.
No kingdom cards cost more than $6.
The cost of a card does not depend on whether it is your Action phase or your Buy phase.
No cards cost more than $8.
The game ends only when Provinces or three (or four) other piles are depleted.

Cornucopia:
All cards are either Kingdom cards or basic cards.
All cards at least in principle can be in the supply.
No card has more than two types.
There are 10 piles of Kingdom cards in the supply.
If no one gains a card, its presence in the kingdom has no effect on gameplay.
All treasure cards produce money (at least, usually).
The number of actions you have is irrelevant in your Buy phase.

Hinterlands:
Reaction cards are Action cards.
Reaction cards are revealed from your hand to have an effect.
All openings are 5/2, 2/5, 4/3, or 3/4.
Cards that instruct players to gain Curses are Attacks.

Dark Ages:
A card's name does not change.
Trashing a card removes it from the game, if it stays in the trash after the resolution of the effect that put it there.
No cards cost $1.
No cards give negative coins.
All Action card piles in the supply begin with 10 cards.
All the cards in a supply pile are identical.
No card has more than three types.
All the cards in a supply pile have the same cost.
No basic cards are Actions.
You begin the game with three Estates in your deck.
All cards can in principle be gained.
All cards are at least one of Action, Treasure, Victory, and Curse.
Every Victory card can be worth at least 1 VP.
Every Dominion expansion contains a card that distributes Curses.

Promotional cards:
Cards may only be bought from the supply.
You can play Treasures and buy cards only during your Buy phase.
There are at least eight copies of all cards in the game.
All kingdom cards in a game start in the supply.
All cards have the same back.
You may not deliberately manipulate the outcome of your shuffles.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:58:20 pm by AJD »
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Loschmidt

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 01:36:22 am »
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Nice and thoughtful post :) One question though:

Intrigue:
The content of everyone's deck is in principle public information (you can remember what they've gained and trashed).

How does Intrigue violate this?
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Eevee

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 01:39:41 am »
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Nice and thoughtful post :) One question though:

Intrigue:
The content of everyone's deck is in principle public information (you can remember what they've gained and trashed).

How does Intrigue violate this?
Masquerade in multiplayer.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 01:44:14 am »
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Nice and thoughtful post :) One question though:

Intrigue:
The content of everyone's deck is in principle public information (you can remember what they've gained and trashed).

How does Intrigue violate this?
Masquerade in multiplayer.

Ahhhh! Very interesting. I'd never thought about that before.

Now I want to see some Masquerade based Uncertainty Principle based puzzles :P
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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 02:26:45 am »
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there are 10 piles of kingdom cards in the supply for Cornucopia.... how is that violated? Note: in the supply...
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ConMan

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 02:37:13 am »
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there are 10 piles of kingdom cards in the supply for Cornucopia.... how is that violated? Note: in the supply...
Young Witch and her Bane.
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Jive Junkie

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 03:18:41 am »
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I think you should add in Seaside:

Cards that belong to a player exist only in play, in hand, in the deck, or in the discard.

Island and Native Village violate this rule.
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chwhite

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2012, 03:52:15 am »
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A couple, mostly Masq-related, nitpicks:

Seaside:
The only way to remove cards from your deck is by trashing them.

Masquerade can remove them via passing, no?

Hinterlands:
A card must have been bought or gained in order to have an effect on gameplay.
Cards that distribute Curses are Attacks.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first thing here- what's the example you're thinking of? And, again, Masquerade can distribute Curses (unless maybe you're not counting "pass" as "distribute", but I think it works). 

Dark Ages:
Every Victory card is worth at least 1 VP.

Gardens, Silk Road, and Vineyard can all be worth 0 VP.

A couple other possibilities:

Seaside:
The only card types are Action, Treasure, Victory, Curse, Reaction, and Attack.

Cornucopia:
[you could add Duration to the Seaside list above]
No card has more than two types.

Dark Ages:
[you could add Prize to the Cornucopia list above]
No card has more than three types. 
All the cards in a supply pile have the same cost.
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Young Nick

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2012, 06:05:05 am »
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The effect of playing a card is independent of the circumstances in which is it played.

A card must have been bought or gained in order to have an effect on gameplay.

Reaction cards are revealed from your hand to have an effect.

I'm guessing you mean Torturer, IGG, and YW's bane?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2012, 06:32:57 am »
+1

All cards can in principle be gained.
What do you mean by this?

Quote
Every Victory card is worth at least 1 VP.
I think you mean "Every Victory card can potentially be worth at least 1 VP."
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Young Nick

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2012, 07:00:03 am »
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HME, that got me, too.

Shelters.
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ST218

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2012, 07:39:49 am »
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The effect of playing a card is independent of the circumstances in which is it played.

A card must have been bought or gained in order to have an effect on gameplay.

Reaction cards are revealed from your hand to have an effect.

I'm guessing you mean Torturer, IGG, and YW's bane?

For the first one, I was thinking Conspirator myself.
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Young Nick

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2012, 08:06:22 am »
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...that makes so much sense.
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werothegreat

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2012, 08:58:36 am »
+1

The effect of playing a card is independent of the circumstances in which is it played.

A card must have been bought or gained in order to have an effect on gameplay.

Reaction cards are revealed from your hand to have an effect.

I'm guessing you mean Torturer, IGG, and YW's bane?

No, Fool's Gold, any of the on-gain effects (that are being gained, not "have been gained"), and Tunnel.

Also, I could have sworn I made a thread about this very topic, but it seems I only made several posts about it.

To me, expansions aren't so much about rules being violated as about new design space being explored that hadn't been.
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AJD

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 09:48:21 am »
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I think you should add in Seaside:

Cards that belong to a player exist only in play, in hand, in the deck, or in the discard.

Island and Native Village violate this rule.

I was thinking about this but couldn't think of a good way to phrase it, since cards have been hanging out in set-aside-cards-land since Adventurer. I think I'll rephrase this as "Cards that belong to a player do not exist for the long term outside the player's deck and discard pile."
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AJD

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 09:52:16 am »
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A couple, mostly Masq-related, nitpicks:

Seaside:
The only way to remove cards from your deck is by trashing them.

Masquerade can remove them via passing, no?

Good point.

Quote
Hinterlands:
A card must have been bought or gained in order to have an effect on gameplay.
Cards that distribute Curses are Attacks.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first thing here- what's the example you're thinking of?

Duchess; I was thinking of the "In games using this" clause. But that's not quite right either, since Young Witch also in effect has an "in games using this" clause. (And Duchess's ability only has an effect on gameplay if you actually gain the Duchess anyway, so... yeah.)

Quote
A couple other possibilities:

Seaside:
The only card types are Action, Treasure, Victory, Curse, Reaction, and Attack.

Cornucopia:
[you could add Duration to the Seaside list above]
No card has more than two types.

Dark Ages:
[you could add Prize to the Cornucopia list above]
No card has more than three types. 
All the cards in a supply pile have the same cost.

Good ones. (Except by the time Prize is a card type, and maybe even by the time Duration is, I don't think "these are the only card types" sounds as much like a basic rule principle anymore.)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 11:36:00 pm by AJD »
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AJD

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Re: Paradigm shifts
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 09:52:52 am »
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The effect of playing a card is independent of the circumstances in which is it played.

A card must have been bought or gained in order to have an effect on gameplay.

Reaction cards are revealed from your hand to have an effect.

I'm guessing you mean Torturer, IGG, and YW's bane?

No, I mean Conspirator, Duchess, and Tunnel.
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