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FishingVillage

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Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« on: August 28, 2012, 10:05:00 pm »
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Hi folks. This is my fan expansion set, salvaged from my previous expansion, Piston Town. In the interest of making something more focused, I ended up pulling out a bunch of cards (for later) and tried focusing on a more specific theme. Some of these cards will probably seem familiar!

Mechanically, it’s about using every card in your hand every turn; using your entire deck would be even better. Some cards get better when a low hand size is achieved, other cards discard or trash cards out of hand. Handsize draw cards benefit greatly in particular.

Any feedback I can get on these cards would be welcome. I’ve included a FAQ to clarify each card, in case there might be some ambiguities/questions:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-PkjkUWqUcitKqQ12XxGQsQ0aAD8eJv3s5lgsLRA5dU/edit

If the FAQ doesn’t happen to cover something, just ask and I’ll answer to the best of my ability.

Edit001: Changed Future Machine to be more in line with the rest of the set and more like its original version. I want to refrain from personal elaborations or comments for now, mostly because I’d like to know how other folks interpret the cards without my intervention. I’ll try to spruce up the thread over time as well.

Quote
Panhandler $2
Action

+1 Action, +$1
______________________________

In games using this, when another player plays an Attack card, you may gain a Panhandler, putting it on top of your deck. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Quote
Enlist $3
Action

+2 Actions

Discard any number of cards. Gain an Action card with cost in coin up to the number of cards discarded.

Quote
Telescope $3
Action - Reaction

Look at the top 3 cards of your deck, then put them back in any order. You may draw card.

+1 Action
______________________________

When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, draw until you have 7 cards in hand, then put cards from your hand on top of your deck until you have 5 cards in hand.

Quote
Incinerator $3
Action

Each player may trash up to 2 cards from his hand. +$1 per 2 cards trashed in total, rounded down.
______________________________

When this is trashed, +1 Card and +$2.

Quote
Vigilante $3
Action - Attack - Reaction

+$2

If you have 2 or fewer cards in hand, each other player gains a Curse.
______________________________

When another player buys a Victory card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts that card on top of his deck.

Quote
Toymaker $3
Action

+1 Action
______________________________

While this is in play, after you play an Action card, +1 Card, then discard a card.

Quote
Civil Disorder $4
Action - Attack

Reveal your hand. Discard all revealed Victory cards, then draw up to 5 cards in hand.

Each other player reveals the top 4 cards of his deck, discards the revealed non-Victory cards, discards a card per revealed Victory card, then puts the revealed Victory cards into his hand.

Quote
Erratic Engineer $4
Action

Gain a card costing up to $3.
______________________________

While this is in play, cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Quote
Flying Machine $4
Action - Reaction

Choose one: +2 Cards or +3 Actions.
______________________________

When you discard this other than during a Clean-Up phase, you may set this aside. If you do, then at the start of your next turn, return it to your hand.

Quote
Demolition Team $4
Action - Reaction

Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Trash any number of them, then discard the rest.

When you gain this or play it, each other player may reveal the top card of his deck and trash it or discard it.
______________________________

At the start of your turn, you may trash this from your hand.

Quote
Assistant $4
Action

+1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy

Play any number of Treasure cards from your hand.

Quote
Construction Yard $4
Action

+1 Buy

If you have 2 or fewer cards in hand, +$3. Otherwise, +$2.

Quote
Freight Train $5
Action - Reaction

Draw up to 7 cards in hand.
______________________________

At the start of your turn, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, discard any number of cards.

Quote
Femme Fatale $5
Action - Attack

+1 Card, +1 Action

Each other player discards a card, then each player (including you) draws up to 3 cards in hand.

Quote
Impulsive Inventor $5
Action

+1 Action

Trash an Action card from your hand. Gain an Action card costing up to $2 more; put it into your hand.

Quote
Rickety Contraption $6
Action

+4 Cards, +1 Action

Discard one card per Rickety Contraption in play (including this one).

Quote
Mad Mechanic $6
Action

Do this three times: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1. (Each choice can be picked more than once.)

Quote
Future Machine $7
Action - Reaction

If this is the first time you played a Future Machine this turn, discard your hand. If you discarded any cards this way, +10 Cards, +2 Actions and +1 Buy.
______________________________

When another player plays an Attack card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, take an extra turn immediately after that player’s turn. This can’t cause you to take more than two consecutive turns. At the start of Clean-Up on your next turn, trash this.

Quote
Saltpeter $0*
Treasure

Worth $3 and $1 less per Card in your hand, but not less than $0.
______________________________

At the start of your turn and during your turn (after you play, draw or discard a card) this costs $1 per card in your hand.

Quote
Territorial Borders $5
Victory

Worth 1VP for every Victory card with cost in coins equal to $8 or more in each other player’s deck.

Quote
Prodigy $6
Victory - Reaction

Worth 1VP for every 2 Reaction cards in your deck (rounded down).
______________________________

When any player plays an Action card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a copy of that card from the Supply; put it into your hand.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 06:11:22 am by FishingVillage »
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razorborne

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 05:56:47 pm »
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how is Erratic Engineer not a megafeast?
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SwitchedFromStarcraft

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 06:56:46 pm »
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First fan set I've read in toto.  I like the theme.  I loved Incinerator.

I have two comments:

a) When I read the bottom of Rickety Contraption, I read "Discard a card..." and my brain readied itself to process what came next as a description of what type of card I was going to have to discard.  I had to double back and reread to properly process that the back end of the sentence was about quantity (rather than type) of cards.  You can signpost the notion of quantity by changing the article to the cardinal number.  "Discard one card per...".

b) On Mad Mechanic, there is no antecedent for "this" in "Do this three times..."  The concept of "choosing" is not introduced until the parenthetical, and the reader then infers that choosing is the action to be performed three times.  Recasting the instruction may make things more clear, possibly eliminating the need for the parenthetical:

Choose one of the following four: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1. Repeat.  Repeat once more.

An added benefit: It's two words shorter (though not all that much space if you're counting picas).

Very nice job.  I'd like to play this set.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 08:15:58 pm »
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how is Erratic Engineer not a megafeast?
Well, I will assume two levels of concern here.

The first Erratic Engineer won't be able to gain anything costing $5, as the line for cost reduction occurs after the gain. My interpretation is that the gain will take place first, then the cost reduction activates and stays in place as long as that Erratic Engineer is around. If this is not how the order of operations occur, then I will make amendments.

But yes, the second Erratic Engineer will be able to pick up cards that originally costed $5, due to the cost reduction from the first Erratic Engineer. The third will be able to pick up anything that originally costed $6, and so on. If this is also considered too strong, then okay, I guess I should make amendments on that too.

First fan set I've read in toto.  I like the theme.  I loved Incinerator.
Thanks for the kind complements! :)

I have two comments:

a) When I read the bottom of Rickety Contraption, I read "Discard a card..." and my brain readied itself to process what came next as a description of what type of card I was going to have to discard.  I had to double back and reread to properly process that the back end of the sentence was about quantity (rather than type) of cards.  You can signpost the notion of quantity by changing the article to the cardinal number.  "Discard one card per...".

b) On Mad Mechanic, there is no antecedent for "this" in "Do this three times..."  The concept of "choosing" is not introduced until the parenthetical, and the reader then infers that choosing is the action to be performed three times.  Recasting the instruction may make things more clear, possibly eliminating the need for the parenthetical:

Choose one of the following four: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1. Repeat.  Repeat once more.

An added benefit: It's two words shorter (though not all that much space if you're counting picas).

Very nice job.  I'd like to play this set.
a) Agreed, I guess saying discard one card per would make Rickety Contraption more clear. Going to make this change now.
b) Yikes, that's quite a misfire on my part. The original text was something like this:

Choose three: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1. (Each choice can be picked more than once.)

It was based off of text from Pawn, which I think was pretty clear. Would that work? Your organization of the text would work too, I'd just replace "Repeat. Repeat once more." with "Repeat this twice" and maybe not mention four after following. It'd then look like this:

Choose one of the following: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1. Repeat this twice.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 08:35:50 pm »
+1

Panhandler -- Strange.  It is a really weak card, but the permanent Moat potential really warps things.  In almost all situations I would happily take a Panhandler instead of a Curse.  Would I buy a Witch that only gave out Panhandlers (because that's what would happen)?  I'm not sure.

Enlist -- seems OK.

Telescope -- Why is the +1 Action after the main effect?  The action sounds a little annoying to play.  It is non-terminal; if you have a few of these you'll be looking at the same cards repeatedly.  Reaction looks cool.

Incinerator -- It's such a big benefit to opponents, I probably wouldn't ever buy it.  But it looks OK, I think.

Vigilante -- Action seems not too bad, but would need testing.  The reaction adds politics to the game, so I'm not a fan.

Toymaker -- The reaction could make games super slow, especially when you have multiples in play, and adding on an effect like that to every action card is just asking for balancing issues.  Note that a single play of Toymaker reads "+2 Cards, +1 Action, discard a card."  That is nearly as effective as a Lab.  I would cost that alone at $4.  With the effect on all Action cards, I think I'd start testing at $5.

Civil Disorder -- The benefit is pretty weak.  The attack is hard to judge.  You could potentially force a player to replace 4 hand cards with VP... then again, that would basically clear their deck for the next turn.  Not sure about it.

Erratic Engineer -- razorborne is right, this is far better than Feast at the same price.  It doesn't trash itself and it has lingering cost reduction.  You probably meant to say "Gain a card costing up to $3", which lets you get a $4 card on the first place, $5 on a second place, etc.

(PPE: I would argue that your interpretation is wrong -- even though the "while in play" text comes after, it is SEPARATE from the main action and thus does not come into effect sequentially.)

Flying Machine -- Seems fine, I think.

Demolition Team -- The trashing is strong, but it's tempered by big benefit to opponents.  That looks good.  I don't like the self-trashing.  Your trasher doesn't need a way to get out of the way when it's done.

Assistant -- I feel like playing Treasures outside of the Buy phase is something special that should stay with Black Market alone.

Construction Yard -- Seems fine.

Freight Train -- I don't see a reason for this to be a Reaction.  Just make it part of the on-play effect.

Femme Fatale -- Spammable cantrip attack, bleh.  Probably OK anyway.  It's not until the third play that this stings more than, say, Militia.

Impulsive Inventor -- Donald has mentioned testing numerous remodel-to-hand variants, all of which were thrown out.  I don't think this looks broken, but I am very wary about it because of Donald's comments.

Rickety Contraption -- So strong.  Even with the discard, probably too strong for even $6.  Probably needs a Potion cost to work.

Mad Mechanic -- I would word it, "Choose three (choices may be the same)."  I think the flexibility here might be too strong for just $6 (maybe needs a Potion cost).  It can already be a Lab or a terminal Gold.  The other possibilities make it really powerful.

Future Machine -- A this-turn Tactician... that alone I think is too powerful for $7.  Like the last two, it probably needs a Potion cost.  You could set up a "double Tactician" kind of deck so easily with just Future Machine and a single Scheme.  The reaction can get really confusing, ESPECIALLY if multiple people reveal Future Machine at the same time.

Saltpeter -- Variable worth and variable price is really weird.  It also conflicts a bit.  It costs less if you have a way to lower your hand size, and it is also worth more in that case.  Conversely, it is more expensive if you don't have a way to lower hand size, in which case it is also worthless for coin.  The changing cost text needs to be phrased more clearly.

Territorial Border -- Victory cards aren't worth money, except for Harem which is worth $2. :P  I think you mean "costing."  So this is an anti-Province, and even better in Colony games.  The card is weird because if your opponents don't buy Province/Colony, it is worthless.  But if they do, this can end up worth so much.  Hard to judge.

Prodigy -- I worry about the self-counting.  It counts other stuff too.  Maybe that makes it OK, I am not sure.
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razorborne

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 08:38:05 pm »
+1

how is Erratic Engineer not a megafeast?
Well, I will assume two levels of concern here.

The first Erratic Engineer won't be able to gain anything costing $5, as the line for cost reduction occurs after the gain. My interpretation is that the gain will take place first, then the cost reduction activates and stays in place as long as that Erratic Engineer is around. If this is not how the order of operations occur, then I will make amendments.

But yes, the second Erratic Engineer will be able to pick up cards that originally costed $5, due to the cost reduction from the first Erratic Engineer. The third will be able to pick up anything that originally costed $6, and so on. If this is also considered too strong, then okay, I guess I should make amendments on that too.
I do not believe this is true, although I am admittedly not the most familiar with the intricacies of the dominion rules. the way I read it, though, "while this is in play" is just a static modifier. it's in play when you choose what to gain. it's not another action that needs to be taken, like Warehouse, or Oasis, in which case I'd definitely agree that they're done in the order on the card. it's just a thing that is true while Engineer is in play. maybe this is my M:tG biases showing through, though.
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Grujah

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 08:45:10 pm »
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razorborne is right.
If it had Bridge's wording,  FV's would be right.
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Archetype

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2012, 08:46:28 pm »
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Many of these cards are very cool and original. But I have to say that Mad Mechanic either needs a Potion cost, or needs to be thrown out. It is similar to a card I submitted in the Potion challenge, but mine was much weaker (lacking the +1$ option) and costs 4P.

My favorite card out of the set has to be Civil Disorder or Territorial Borders.

Neat cards!
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FishingVillage

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2012, 06:23:59 am »
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@eHalcyon:
Thanks for the response eHalcyon :) For some of the comments you made, I might not block quote them here. I will say that I definitely read through and parsed all the comments, but I won't necessarily have a meaningful response to make for all of them (maybe I just agree!), so for the comments which I can't do justice for I will leave them off.

Panhandler -- Strange.  It is a really weak card, but the permanent Moat potential really warps things.  In almost all situations I would happily take a Panhandler instead of a Curse.  Would I buy a Witch that only gave out Panhandlers (because that's what would happen)?  I'm not sure.
Well I guess the question would be if it was worth it to take Panhandlers, as they would go immediately on top of your deck instead of your discard, which could mess up your plans in different ways. Also note that gaining a Panhandler only stop one attack each time, so someone playing multiple Attacks per turn could slow down your deck quite a bit, and you will start taking attacks eventually.

Telescope -- Why is the +1 Action after the main effect?  The action sounds a little annoying to play.  It is non-terminal; if you have a few of these you'll be looking at the same cards repeatedly.  Reaction looks cool.
Telescope has an optional draw after you reorganize the top of your deck, so it doesn't leave you spinning your wheels unless you decide not to draw.

Vigilante -- Action seems not too bad, but would need testing.  The reaction adds politics to the game, so I'm not a fan.
I don't mind there being a little politics, although if the concern is that Vigilante's Reaction effect is too strong as is, maybe having the player shuffle the Victory card into his deck would be milder than leaving it on top.

Toymaker -- The reaction could make games super slow, especially when you have multiples in play, and adding on an effect like that to every action card is just asking for balancing issues.  Note that a single play of Toymaker reads "+2 Cards, +1 Action, discard a card."  That is nearly as effective as a Lab.  I would cost that alone at $4.  With the effect on all Action cards, I think I'd start testing at $5.
Whoops :X The idea is that the sifting effect doesn't start for the initial Toymaker; the first Toymaker played will just be a vanilla cantrip, but subsequent Actions after that will sift. And after a rather abrupt understanding of how "while in play" clauses really work, I'm thinking what I'll do is just drop the +1 Card off of Toymaker. Adding extra sifting onto additional Actions played is pretty good anyway.

Erratic Engineer -- razorborne is right, this is far better than Feast at the same price.  It doesn't trash itself and it has lingering cost reduction.  You probably meant to say "Gain a card costing up to $3", which lets you get a $4 card on the first place, $5 on a second place, etc.

(PPE: I would argue that your interpretation is wrong -- even though the "while in play" text comes after, it is SEPARATE from the main action and thus does not come into effect sequentially.)
Okay, hmm yeah. If that's how the timing for "while in play" clauses work, then I'll definitely need to amend that down to $3 instead.

Demolition Team -- The trashing is strong, but it's tempered by big benefit to opponents.  That looks good.  I don't like the self-trashing.  Your trasher doesn't need a way to get out of the way when it's done.
I don't mind the self-trashing so much; it has to take up a space in your starting hand first in order to be trashed. Maybe I'll make it mandatory to trash another card out of hand as well when trashing the Demolition Team.

Assistant -- I feel like playing Treasures outside of the Buy phase is something special that should stay with Black Market alone.
=\ Curious as to why that must be a Black Market specific effect, but okay.

Freight Train -- I don't see a reason for this to be a Reaction.  Just make it part of the on-play effect.
I dunno, I think being able to drop your entire current hand and draw back up to a big hand at will is very strong. Library and Watchtower are often unable to reach full potential because of dead cards or Treasure cards taking up space, but Freight Train doesn't necessarily have those problems (if you draw it in the initial hand).

Rickety Contraption -- So strong.  Even with the discard, probably too strong for even $6.  Probably needs a Potion cost to work.
Ehhh... well I didn't mention this earlier, but at least for this set, I'm trying not to include more material than what is part of the basic setup. That means no mentions of mats, tokens, and extra cards if I can help it (such as Potion and Platinum). Probably a dumb challenge, but mainly this means I'm more willing to weaken cards before I have to introduce extra materials.

Conceptually, I'm would think something like Rickety Contraption can find a happy place somewhere. Maybe drop from +4 Cards down to +3 Cards? Seems like a rather terrible $6 card if it only nets 2 cards the first time it is played (and 1 less per play after that).

Mad Mechanic -- I would word it, "Choose three (choices may be the same)."  I think the flexibility here might be too strong for just $6 (maybe needs a Potion cost).  It can already be a Lab or a terminal Gold.  The other possibilities make it really powerful.
Ack. Hmm... well honestly I don't know if Mad Mechanic is really helping the rest of the theme for this set, maybe it should be dropped. I could increase the cost up to $7, but I imagine that won't help.

Future Machine -- A this-turn Tactician... that alone I think is too powerful for $7.  Like the last two, it probably needs a Potion cost.  You could set up a "double Tactician" kind of deck so easily with just Future Machine and a single Scheme.  The reaction can get really confusing, ESPECIALLY if multiple people reveal Future Machine at the same time.
In the current version, Future Machine trashes itself, regardless of whether you play it as an Action or set it aside as a Reaction, so you can't play it forever. I'll admit the version I initially posted didn't have trashing included, but I reverted back to the original version after mulling it over some more. Sorry that wasn't made clear :(

Good point on multiple players setting aside Future Machine though. I guess the order for extra turns involving multiple players would depend on who revealed first, just as revealing Reactions is normally done in turn order as well, and normal turn order would be restored after that. Assuming a 4P game with players sitting at a round table in compass directions, if the south player played a Militia and the west and east players each set aside a Future Machine, the west player would take his extra turn first, then the east player. Once the extra turns are done, turn order would return to how it normally was after the south player, so the west player would take his turn after the south player.

Saltpeter -- Variable worth and variable price is really weird.  It also conflicts a bit.  It costs less if you have a way to lower your hand size, and it is also worth more in that case.  Conversely, it is more expensive if you don't have a way to lower hand size, in which case it is also worthless for coin.  The changing cost text needs to be phrased more clearly.
Well, Saltpeter is a card that very largely favors having a small hand size in both ways, which is what this set is about (in fact I'm worried about Saltpeter and Construction Yard being possibly too similar in use). Increasing the cost by a lot isn't all bad though, if you can take advantage of the price. Regarding cost phrasing, it used to have a base price with each card in hand increasing the price, so some of that's a bit vestigial. What about phrasing like this:

"During your turn, this costs $1 per card in your hand."

I had added the bit about drawing, playing and discarding a card to be more blunt about when the cost of Saltpeter is updated, but hopefully the above phrasing is concise enough and clear (or that the explanation in the FAQ will be helpful).

Territorial Border -- Victory cards aren't worth money, except for Harem which is worth $2. :P  I think you mean "costing."  So this is an anti-Province, and even better in Colony games.  The card is weird because if your opponents don't buy Province/Colony, it is worthless.  But if they do, this can end up worth so much.  Hard to judge.
Haha, I'll need to fix that typo :P I purposely put it at $5 so that it would have to compete against Duchy as well, which doesn't get scored by Territorial Border, so it'll come down to a bit of tug of war between Provinces/Colonies, Duchies and Territorial Borders.

@Archetype:
Many of these cards are very cool and original. But I have to say that Mad Mechanic either needs a Potion cost, or needs to be thrown out. It is similar to a card I submitted in the Potion challenge, but mine was much weaker (lacking the +1$ option) and costs 4P.

My favorite card out of the set has to be Civil Disorder or Territorial Borders.

Neat cards!
Thanks for the response :) At this rate maybe I'll be tossing Mad Mechanic out, which would be somewhat okay since it didn't really fit the theme anyway. I'm glad you're interested in Civil Disorder and Territorial Borders though!

@razorborne:
Well, there seems to be consensus here on how the "while in play" clauses work. I'll keep that in mind an update cards accordingly. Thanks for bringing it up!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2012, 11:52:05 am »
0

Responses to responses!

Panhandler -- If it wasn't clear, I actually liked this card.  It warps things, but not in a game breaking way.  The pile eventually runs out and then your perma-Moat is gone, plus you're left with a lot of junk.

Telescope -- You re-order three cards but can only draw one, which means a second play would have you looking at two of the same cards.  You make progress, but it's slow progress.

Vigilante -- If you don't mind politics, it's probably fine.  I just personally prefer no politics in Dominion, as per the original design. :)

Demolition Team -- Is there any particular reason you want it to be able to trash itself?

Assistant -- It's just personal preference.  Doesn't mean your take is bad!

Freight Train -- Sure, but why is it a Reaction?  Why not just add it to the play effect: "Discard any number of cards, then draw up to 7 cards in hand."  Hm, I suppose it is to aid the other cards in your set that work better when you have a small hand.  But still, a reaction to the start of your turn is really strange to me.  I guess it's OK though?

Rickety Contraption -- It's hard to say.  I only suggested the potion cost on this and the other cards because they seem like they might be unpriceable normally.  3 cards does seem weaker and I would start testing that at $5.  Remember that even though you net fewer and fewer cards, you are still drawing the same number.  "+3 cards, discard 2" is MUCH stronger than "+1 card".

Mad Mechanic -- Hard to say as well.  It might still be OK at $6, I am just musing. :)

Future Machine -- The other thing about this version is that you could get into an infinite state that locks another player out of the game.  Imagine there are three players.  P1 is an unlucky sap who did not buy Future Machine.  P2 and P3 split FM 5/5, such that they can reasonably expect to see FM in every hand.  Someone plays an attack, doesn't matter who.  P2/P3 reveals FM.  On their extra turn, they play an attack and the other reveals FM.  Repeat.  They keep going back and forth, taking (non-consecutive!) extra turns, while P1 never gets to play again.

Your one-shot version helps a little, but this game state is still possible -- just need to add in Graverobber!

Saltpeter -- that phrasing is cleaner.  In an FAQ you'd probably have to clarify a bit.  An example that may be confusing for some:

You have Remodel, Saltpeter, three other cards.  Play Remodel on Saltpeter... what does it cost?  Remodel is not in your hand at that point... is Saltpeter?  I would argue no.  You trash it, then you gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, and there are 3 cards in your hand then.

My comment about the price conflict was that you would prefer to buy it when you can make it valuable; if you can do that, you can buy it cheap.  In games where it is hard to lower the price, it is also less valuable.  It makes more sense (from an economic perspective!) that it should cost more if it is going to be more valuable.  It is just a little weird, is all.  :P
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FishingVillage

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 03:10:31 pm »
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Telescope -- You re-order three cards but can only draw one, which means a second play would have you looking at two of the same cards.  You make progress, but it's slow progress.
True true, but it's also easier to get compared to Cartographer and Apothecary, and Telescope also lets you reorder cards before drawing, which can be quite nice sometimes.

Demolition Team -- Is there any particular reason you want it to be able to trash itself?
Well... I think it is an interesting capability that can be worth exploring, but I do acknowledge that it's too strong to allow normally on a trasher. A clean deck is the best deck after all! If you're keeping good track of what's in your deck though, having a Demolition Team around to sweep off the remaining cards could be useful.

Freight Train -- Sure, but why is it a Reaction?  Why not just add it to the play effect: "Discard any number of cards, then draw up to 7 cards in hand."  Hm, I suppose it is to aid the other cards in your set that work better when you have a small hand.  But still, a reaction to the start of your turn is really strange to me.  I guess it's OK though?
Yeah, the discard becomes a choice that can be done independently of actually playing a Freight Train, in case you don't actually want to play it :P

Rickety Contraption -- It's hard to say.  I only suggested the potion cost on this and the other cards because they seem like they might be unpriceable normally.  3 cards does seem weaker and I would start testing that at $5.  Remember that even though you net fewer and fewer cards, you are still drawing the same number.  "+3 cards, discard 2" is MUCH stronger than "+1 card".

Mad Mechanic -- Hard to say as well.  It might still be OK at $6, I am just musing. :)
:P I'll try Mad Mechanic again at $6 and Rickety Contraption at $5 with +3 Cards.

Future Machine -- The other thing about this version is that you could get into an infinite state that locks another player out of the game.  Imagine there are three players.  P1 is an unlucky sap who did not buy Future Machine.  P2 and P3 split FM 5/5, such that they can reasonably expect to see FM in every hand.  Someone plays an attack, doesn't matter who.  P2/P3 reveals FM.  On their extra turn, they play an attack and the other reveals FM.  Repeat.  They keep going back and forth, taking (non-consecutive!) extra turns, while P1 never gets to play again.

Your one-shot version helps a little, but this game state is still possible -- just need to add in Graverobber!
T_T well on the bright side it'd be pretty hard to get that going perpetually. Maybe I need to apply an absolutely-removed-from-the-freaking-game-forever zone...

Saltpeter -- that phrasing is cleaner.  In an FAQ you'd probably have to clarify a bit.  An example that may be confusing for some:

You have Remodel, Saltpeter, three other cards.  Play Remodel on Saltpeter... what does it cost?  Remodel is not in your hand at that point... is Saltpeter?  I would argue no.  You trash it, then you gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, and there are 3 cards in your hand then.

My comment about the price conflict was that you would prefer to buy it when you can make it valuable; if you can do that, you can buy it cheap.  In games where it is hard to lower the price, it is also less valuable.  It makes more sense (from an economic perspective!) that it should cost more if it is going to be more valuable.  It is just a little weird, is all.  :P
Hmm... my interpretation of that scenario is that Saltpeter would have a cost of $4 at the time it is trashed, since you had Saltpeter and the 3 other cards in hand at the time. It hasn't left your hand yet at that point. When you've trashed it, the deed is done so Saltpeter's new cost no longer matters and now you can gain something up to $6. I won't mind if your interpretation turns out to be correct, although it'll make Saltpeter a tiny bit weaker for TFB.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2012, 03:15:07 pm »
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As I suggested last time, I'd like it thematically if Mad Mechanic had a trashing option, and that could justify a price increase to $7

Edit: Also I'd like freight train a little bit more if you could reveal it as a defense to attacks (eg ghost ship, bureaucrat, minion, pillage) as well as at the start of your turn. Seems like that would be the little nudge it needs to make it worthy of its cost.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 03:18:50 pm by NoMoreFun »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2012, 03:18:13 pm »
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Don't know if I'm right about Saltpeter.  But it is an area that would be of confusion to users, so it needs to be considered.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2012, 03:30:45 pm »
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Saltpeter's treasure effect is a great idea, but the variable cost doesn't make sense to me. In the kind of decks where saltpeter would be a good card, you'd be able to pick it up for free. I'd cost it at $3 or $4. The idea of a cost equalling the number of cards in your hand isn't a bad idea though; I'm sure there's a card that would perfectly fit how the mechanic works with gainers and trash for benefits.

Edit: My suggestion would be having a variable cost be "During your Action Phase", so you can't pick it up for super cheap after you've played all your treasures. This also gets rid of awkward "During your turn" wording. As for rules clarifications they work themselves out if you read through the text like it's code, and count the number of cards in your hand whenever cost is mentioned.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 03:40:45 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Fan Expansion: Dominion - Eureka
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2012, 05:17:44 pm »
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Freight Train might combo quite nicely with my Railway Town card. I find this thematically satisfactory.
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