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[ehunt]

unvote cuzzbomb makes ashersky look better which makes o look better.

were you voting O because of your read on ashersky?

i thought ashersky's conversation with you today was superscummy and seemed like mafia defending fellow mafia, which in turn made O look worse, but, in fact, ashersky is as confirmed town as we're going to get at this point, so that whole narrative kinda fell apart.

but no, there's plenty of reason to vote for O to go around, not just the ashersky business.

[O]

I am definitely suspicious of the people who we haven't heard from in a while. To me, that is morgrim, theorel, cuzz, axxle, o. Theorel definitely seems the worst to me.

His posts seem to lack a certain content and it feels like he is here but just not active.

I still find shraeye super scummy, but for now, his re-reads with commentary are too valuable to lose. I do fear that he is the new f.DS scum, being too helpful and thus avoiding suspicion. However, I can't back that up except with my gut.

So vote: theorel. His (/ibgtennis's) complete lack of posting has gotten out of hand.

I felt like I lurked harder and that calling posts "lacking of a certain content" was a cop-out excuse to force a vote on someone.

It wasn't very much to go on in retrospect.

[O]

Reasons to vote O:

I lurked hard
I didn't read
policy


Reasons not to vote O:

I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.

[ehunt]

I am definitely suspicious of the people who we haven't heard from in a while. To me, that is morgrim, theorel, cuzz, axxle, o. Theorel definitely seems the worst to me.

His posts seem to lack a certain content and it feels like he is here but just not active.

I still find shraeye super scummy, but for now, his re-reads with commentary are too valuable to lose. I do fear that he is the new f.DS scum, being too helpful and thus avoiding suspicion. However, I can't back that up except with my gut.

So vote: theorel. His (/ibgtennis's) complete lack of posting has gotten out of hand.

I felt like I lurked harder and that calling posts "lacking of a certain content" was a cop-out excuse to force a vote on someone.

It wasn't very much to go on in retrospect.

actually this is interesting. of that list of people, i'd rank them subjectively from least lurky to most lurky as

cuzz < theorel < morgrim < axxle < O

(this is as of end of day yesterday when it was relevant, not as of now, obviously). you can throw YN a bone for morg-sanity but it's still weird he picked theorel over axxle or you.

[ehunt]

Reasons not to vote O:

I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.

everybody knows for a fact that cayvie targeted young nick last night. the assertion is watcher, not tracker.... which is something you definitely understood earlier in the evening. you are pretending not to understand!

vote: O

[O]

Reasons not to vote O:

I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.

everybody knows for a fact that cayvie targeted young nick last night. the assertion is watcher, not tracker.... which is something you definitely understood earlier in the evening. you are pretending not to understand!

vote: O

or I don't have a goddamn clue what's happening.

where did cayvie claim this?

[ehunt]

Reasons not to vote O:

I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.

everybody knows for a fact that cayvie targeted young nick last night. the assertion is watcher, not tracker.... which is something you definitely understood earlier in the evening. you are pretending not to understand!

vote: O

or I don't have a goddamn clue what's happening.

where did cayvie claim this?

cayvie didn't claim watcher. cayvie argued that it's likely that mafia (possibly falsely) assumed she was watcher, based on who she targeted each of the three nights, and that this explains why you came forward with the roleblock of young nick, because everyone knows cayvie targeted young nick last night.

[ehunt]

(it's basically the story you transmogrified into being a story about a tracker, except it makes a lot more sense because it doesn't involve you freaking out about cayvie tracking you [which would be ludicrous], it involves you freaking out about cayvie watching someone whom you know that cayvie targeted)

except, i don't even think i have to explain this to you, i'm pretty sure you were following the thread a few hours ago when all this went down. you even asked "is cayvie claiming watcher?" and it was explained several times that this didn't happen but it was a perception argument. i really think you are feigning ignorance here.

[ehunt]

unvote nothing's right. i'm torn. i'm all out of faith. this is how i feel. etc.

[ashersky]

i am also highly suspicious of ashersky who defended O's actions in a manner that was logically incompatible with O's own defense of O's actions, suggesting that he already knew O was roleblocking and hadn't actually read the thread. vote: O; if he flips town then I want to go after young nick. if he flips scum then I want to go after ashersky.

I will say, I have no real take on O.  I was just trying to come up with reasons he did what he did.  I could switch if that's the better lynch.

[theorel]

Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel

what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?

Catching up...
(unlike many people) I don't feel a pressing need to vote for my biggest scum-read just because they're my biggest scum-read.  I generally approach the game very differently from others, votes are about pacing, and by controlling my vote I help control the pacing of the game, hopefully to the benefit of town.  In the same vein that I don't say "yn did one suspicious thing therefore he must be scum", I don't say, "yn is my biggest scum-read therefore I want to see him lynched".  What I want to see is conversation about the lynch, whether it should happen, etc.  At some point, if the conversation seems exhausted, I'll vote.  Personally I think you can get a lot of useful information by not voting and talking and listening instead.  This was how I determined that joth was town in MXII (though that ultimately didn't help since people refused to listen, preferring to just vote wherever they "felt" like scum would be).

Anyways, here's my interpretation of current events:

Young Nick:
1. He offered himself as a sacrifice for another player.  In spite of the fact that EVERYONE always thinks this is a scum move, it so far never has been.  The result thus far has been that we've always lynched the offerer, and he's always been town.  Stupidest meta ever.  (result slight town)
2. He's a flavor cop.  Initially I was on board with his investigative powers seeming kind of scummy, then I went and looked it up.  As far as mafia-wiki is concerned flavor cops are usually town aligned.  (result slightly town)
3. He claimed to target eHalcyon at night.  This was either a bad town play or a bad scum play or a lie.  Well 2 out of three are scum reasons, and I like to think people that are playing what to me seems badly are in fact just scum playing well.  (result slightly scum).
4. He's a little lurky.  Whatever, this game is huge and impossible to engage in.  Some players can engage in games like this, some can't.  This is definitely a player-style thing, not a town v. scum thing.

Basically Young Nick seems townier than null, but not significantly.

O:
He's starting to participate now that he's being called out.  This looks a lot like both Grujah and Frisk.  Everything else he's done has been anti-town.  But whatever, everything he did in MXII was anti-town also and he was town there, so obviously that's not useful information regarding O's alignment.  Thursday midnight soft-deadline is suggested...so I'll vote here tomorrow if nothing changes.

shraeye:
He seems to have calmed down of late?  I dunno, I certainly don't feel as repulsed by his recent posts.  He posted his "reads" on everyone which is helpful.  This is probably as close as I'll get to that though.

cayvie:
She's clarified that she was being intentionally misleading (which I had missed the first time, so thanks for reposting it).  As she herself has noted: her targets make little sense if she's scum.  So, if she's scum she's lying.  For the moment, she feels honest...I'm not sure if I could identify scum-cayvie though.

[jotheonah]

At this time, it seems like there are four main paths that people are considering:

(in no particular order)
1. O
2. Shraeye
3. Cayvie
4. Young Nick

I would say it makes the most sense for us to focus on this group of four and not get too sidetracked with others unless something warrants it.

I do agree with those who say that it is not possible for both me and O to be scum. It would be too counter-productive unless O claims to roleblock me, but that's a lot of WIFOM. Mafia would have been better off letting the real role-blocker reveal themselves.

Also, me and O can't be scum because I am not. That's the more obvious one. What I am trying to say is that when O flips Mafia, I would be cleared.

I do like Cayvie's theory regarding O's confession to blocking me.

Right now, Cayvie is super-hard to read. The main thing against her is that it seems that her role would be too bastard as town, but there is no inditement on her playing in itself. Mafia could just claim this at the start of the game and be smooth-sailing as they never have to vote for scum-buddies, I guess, but I don't see that happening.

Shraeye has had many things that seem scummy, but it does not compare to O at the moment so vote: O.

You COULD both be scum. I dislike that it's YOU saying one or the other has to be town. That's a great thing for scummates to set up.

Here's the narrative. You're a scum card cop. Your actual action is something (even more indefensible) so you agreed to claim to be roleblocked and O agreed to corroborate your claim.

[Axxle]

the problem, dude, is that you seem to be angling for a meta that is

"O gets to do whatever he wants because he's O and lynching him for it is stupid"

that meta is pro-O, but anti-town.

No, that's what everyone seems to enjoy calling it.

"Imma use my one shot power and not pay attention to claims." Sounds like O doing what O want's to do to me.




I'd still prefer a shraeye lynch since that best explains the night kill, but a YN or O lynch has become agreeable in light of 841.

[Robz888]

Vote Count 4.5

Young Nick (5) -- yuma, ashersky, shraeye, jotheonah, watno,
O (5) -- Cuzz, Morgrim7, Axxle, Young Nick
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
cayvie (1) -- Insomniac

Not voting (6) -- ftl, Dsell, O, theorel, sparky5856, ehunt

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.

[shraeye]

I'd still prefer a shraeye lynch since that best explains the night kill, but a YN or O lynch has become agreeable in light of 841.

I still don't get how me being scum explains the night kill.  Do you still think I'm a power role?

[Axxle]

I'd still prefer a shraeye lynch since that best explains the night kill, but a YN or O lynch has become agreeable in light of 841.

I still don't get how me being scum explains the night kill.  Do you still think I'm a power role?

I misspoke.  I meant that I would think they'd kill either cayvie or YN, known power roles.  They killed eHalc, so one explanation is that either cayvie or YN are scum power roles.  Another explanation is that they were trying to silence eHalc for some reason, and you jump out as someone who eHalc was very critical of.

[ehunt]

I'd still prefer a shraeye lynch since that best explains the night kill, but a YN or O lynch has become agreeable in light of 841.

I still don't get how me being scum explains the night kill.  Do you still think I'm a power role?

I misspoke.  I meant that I would think they'd kill either cayvie or YN, known power roles.  They killed eHalc, so one explanation is that either cayvie or YN are scum power roles.  Another explanation is that they were trying to silence eHalc for some reason, and you jump out as someone who eHalc was very critical of.

I think the best explanation for the eHalc kill is that eHalc was confirmed town and was working really hard in a way that a lot of other folks weren't (and still aren't). If I were scum and YN were not, I would absolutely not have killed YN because there was so much suspicion on him yesterday and the Frisk-flip didn't clear him at all.

I would have considered Cayvie in the same situation, although Cayvie was at least partially frameable as well. Now that I think about it, I guess we should suspect Cuzz epsilon more due to the fact that scum didn't kill him, since Cuzz was looking pretty town and also like he had a mild power role after his claim. But I think eHalc was a very logical scumkill, regardless of claimed PRs.

Also, for the last two nights at least, scum has shot "loud people," i.e. people who are working hard. Seems like a good strategy in the absence of other information.

[Young Nick]

I just want to check in and say I had not previously considered the idea of me and O both being scum. In that case, yeah it would make oh-so-much sense for me to claim role-block by him. So touché to whoever pointed that out.

Not sure what else to say, so yeah.

[yuma]

Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel

what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?

Personally I think you can get a lot of useful information by not voting and talking and listening instead.  This was how I determined that joth was town in MXII (though that ultimately didn't help since people refused to listen, preferring to just vote wherever they "felt" like scum would be).

I understand what you are saying. I too often am very conservative with my vote and I think it makes sense in the context of a smaller game. But in this game, with so many players, offering so many opinions about different players, it is hard to follow who is suspicious of who. For this reason I want to see votes. Votes can be tracked, they are monitored and they are compiled by Robz and put into vote counts. It is what I see and what I go to when I try to catch up on the status of the game.

even now, after just reading your synopsis of the 4 players you list, I can't remember what you had to say about which, but a vote... now that I would remember. Not voting in this game reads hedgy and noncommital, waiting for the opportune moment... ie... it reads scummy to me.

[Watno]

Why is the deadline on Tuesday already?

Looking at some of ashersky's most recent posts, i get a really scummy impression

i reiterate, why does there seem to be no suspicion on O?

he role-blocked a claimed power role.

Maybe he wanted his power to work (as opposed to role-blocking a VT)?  Maybe he was suspicious?

I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours.

How's the Shraeye wagon?  I think I could be convinced on that.

i am also highly suspicious of ashersky who defended O's actions in a manner that was logically incompatible with O's own defense of O's actions, suggesting that he already knew O was roleblocking and hadn't actually read the thread. vote: O; if he flips town then I want to go after young nick. if he flips scum then I want to go after ashersky.

I will say, I have no real take on O.  I was just trying to come up with reasons he did what he did.  I could switch if that's the better lynch.

One thing is, that he completely avoids taking stances. He comes up with reasons for what O did, but says he doesn't have a take on him. He says he could be convinced of a shraeye lynch, and says he'd vote O if thats the better lynch. So if he ends up on a wagon lynching town at the end of the day, he can distance himself from all responsibility, saying he only did what others told him too.
I also don't like this sentence: "I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours". I think this might be a way to make cayvie believe that noone will follow him in voting O, and therefoore it's useless to keep his vote there. So this reads like a defense of O to me.
I know Cuzz claimed to know ashersky was a VT, but from his later response i think it's well possible that he read more into the description he received than there really was, namely the town part in addition to the vanilla part.
I also really don't like how quiet asherskyhas become after that. I'd expect a town player to beome more active after getting cred this way, but I can see scum just sitting back after that.

Considering O - Young Nick, I think its likely that exactly one of the is scum. Both scum just really doesnt seem to work for me, and if they were both town they would be managing to be very scummy in doing so. Although I did think Young Nick was the more likely scum of the two  before, asherskies behaviour towards O and the possible explanation for Os behaviour if he is scum now give the edge to O.

So I'll vote ashersky for now, but if it comes down to a decison between Young Nick and O, as it's looking right now, I will switch to O.

[ashersky]

Why is the deadline on Tuesday already?

Looking at some of ashersky's most recent posts, i get a really scummy impression

i reiterate, why does there seem to be no suspicion on O?

he role-blocked a claimed power role.

Maybe he wanted his power to work (as opposed to role-blocking a VT)?  Maybe he was suspicious?

I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours.

How's the Shraeye wagon?  I think I could be convinced on that.

i am also highly suspicious of ashersky who defended O's actions in a manner that was logically incompatible with O's own defense of O's actions, suggesting that he already knew O was roleblocking and hadn't actually read the thread. vote: O; if he flips town then I want to go after young nick. if he flips scum then I want to go after ashersky.

I will say, I have no real take on O.  I was just trying to come up with reasons he did what he did.  I could switch if that's the better lynch.

One thing is, that he completely avoids taking stances. He comes up with reasons for what O did, but says he doesn't have a take on him. He says he could be convinced of a shraeye lynch, and says he'd vote O if thats the better lynch. So if he ends up on a wagon lynching town at the end of the day, he can distance himself from all responsibility, saying he only did what others told him too.
I also don't like this sentence: "I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours". I think this might be a way to make cayvie believe that noone will follow him in voting O, and therefoore it's useless to keep his vote there. So this reads like a defense of O to me.
I know Cuzz claimed to know ashersky was a VT, but from his later response i think it's well possible that he read more into the description he received than there really was, namely the town part in addition to the vanilla part.
I also really don't like how quiet asherskyhas become after that. I'd expect a town player to beome more active after getting cred this way, but I can see scum just sitting back after that.

Considering O - Young Nick, I think its likely that exactly one of the is scum. Both scum just really doesnt seem to work for me, and if they were both town they would be managing to be very scummy in doing so. Although I did think Young Nick was the more likely scum of the two  before, asherskies behaviour towards O and the possible explanation for Os behaviour if he is scum now give the edge to O.

So I'll vote ashersky for now, but if it comes down to a decison between Young Nick and O, as it's looking right now, I will switch to O.

This post seems like a crazy shot in the dark and attempt to redirect.  I'm basically an IC at this point--mafia won't waste an NK on me--why would you try to lynch me now?  Just to get rid of a town vote?

On the flip side, you'll look pretty terrible if you succeed.

My vote's still on YN, as you may note.  I'm still okay to flip my vote to O if needed.  As many have said, including you, one of them is most probably mafia.

Wasn't Watno close to being lynched at some point?  Maybe we should get back to looking closely at him?

[ehunt]

ashersky: as far as i'm concerned watno gets a pass for now b/c gruj-wagon. yeah, he forgot that you were confirmed town. i'd find that a little scummy (mostly because O famously did it in MIV when he was scum) except i did it myself last night.

[Robz888]

Why is the deadline on Tuesday already?

The deadline was moved up 2 days. Activity in the thread was drawn out enough yesterday that I thought this was appropriate. After all, a game with 25 player has become a game with 17 players.

[Watno]

If you are talking about Cuzzs claim, I explained about that in my post: According to the information Cuzz has given us, I think it's well possible that Cuzz is scum. If i remember right, Cuzz said the description was something along the lines of "can't do anything special", which would still allow for ashersky to be a mafia goon with no additional abilities. I will look up what exactly he said tomorrow, since it's the middle of the night here and I'm too lazy right now.

Also, what do you mean by "if your vote is needed on O", ashersky? If you believe YN is scum rather than O, this makes no sense at all.

[ashersky]

Also, what do you mean by "if your vote is needed on O", ashersky? If you believe YN is scum rather than O, this makes no sense at all.

I mean if we get near deadline and O's the lynch candidate, I'm not holding it up by saying "nope staying on YN no matter what pbbt."  One's scum, right?  Town consensus will decide which one is more likely.  I'm with the town.