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#### wuthefwasthat

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##### Cards with maximum buying value
« on: August 27, 2012, 06:39:53 am »
+5

This one's just for fun.  And not so much a puzzle as a challenge/quiz of sorts.  A break from my usual style

Challenge

You have some amount of \$ to spend during your buy phase this turn.  You play a single card, and the amount of \$ increases by X.  For a given card, define its maximum buying value to be the maximum X it can possibly achieve as the single card played.  From memory, give a list of the 10 Dominion cards with the largest maximum buying value, in order.

Rules:
These are all very important.
• Don't look anything up!  Use your brain and scratch paper if you need it.
• Don't count money obtained by playing a different card, or money obtained in indirect ways.  This is strictly about the amount of \$ given directly by playing that card. (For example, under my definition, Haggler, Black Market, Merchant Ship, Cutpurse count for 2; Talisman, Venture, Counterfeit, Quarry, Ironworks, Bridge, Pawn count for 1; and Procession, King's Court, Golem, Horn of Plenty, Coppersmith, Counting House, Adventurer, University, Princess count for 0).
• Must be a legal game.  Can be 6 player, involve any legal Kingdom.  Black Market can have all non-Kingdom cards, as the rules state (unlike Isotropic).  However, Treasure piles are the standard 60, 40, 30.
• Your list may not have ties, even though the actual answer may in fact have tied values.  This is because I couldn't think of a simple scoring system that doesn't encourage having lots of things being tied.  If you know something is a tie, you can just break it arbitrarily (it won't affect your score).
Scoring:

For each card which is indeed in the top 10, you get a number of points equal to 10 minus the minimal distance between your guessed ranking, and from the actual rank interval.  The maximum score is 100.

E.g. Say you put card X at rank 5.  Then, for that card:
•   If its actual rank was 4, you would get 9 points.
•   If its actual rank was 8, you would get 7 points.
•   If it were actually tied for 7-10, then you would get 8 points.
•   If it were actually tied for 3-5, you would get 10 points.
•   If its actual rank were 11, you would get 0!

Solutions:

Here is what I believe is the actual ranking, using cards up to Dark Ages:

1-2. Pirate Ship, Band of Misfits (infinite)
3-5. Vault, Secret Chamber, Store Room (around \$600)
7. Bank (around \$280)
8. Philosopher's Stone (around \$120)
9. Copper (around \$100)
10. Forager (\$23, I think)

Harsh!  You got 0 points for listing:

11. Trade Route (\$14, I think)
Black Market with Trade Route/Young Witch.  Tunnel bane, 9 other Kingdom VP cards.  Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony.
12. Salvager (\$11)
13-14. Death Cart, Platinum: \$5
Honorable mention: Poor House, Harvest, Tribute, Baron, Fool's Gold (\$4)
Dishonorable mention: Poor House (around -\$250?)

Explanations:
1-2. Pirate Ship, Band of Misfits
Thanks to Rogue/Graverobber.  Pre-Dark Ages, could reach \$263, or \$234 in a 2 Player game.  See topic 2107.
3-5. Vault, Secret Chamber, Store Room (around \$600)
Size of largest possible deck is around 600.  6 player game.  Include a Black Market deck with all cards not in the Kingdom, including Young Witch and Tournament.  Let Rats, Hermit, Urchin, Marauder, a Prosperity card, and a Potion-cost card be piles, with VP Kingdom cards for the rest.  Ambassador/Masquerade shennanigans to get opponent's starting hands.  Native Village to draw, on the final turn.
Have a chain of Throne Rooms above a chain of Processions, and a parallel chain of King's Courts.  Tributes are played by King's Courts, Fortresses by Procession, and fill in rest of chain with arbitrary Villages.  Some Black Market trickery to get a Village bane, with Tournament (bringing Trusty Steed) and all remaining net-action cards in the Black Market deck (including Crossroads, Hermit bringing Madman, Dame Molly, etc).  Have Necropolis, of course.  Pre-Dark Ages was closer to \$270, I think (narrowly beating Pirate Ship and Bank?  Not sure).  I believe including Graverobber/Rogue so that we can get back King's Courts/Tributes/Processions is not going to help, but haven't done the analysis seriously.
7. Bank (around \$280)
Have a bunch of Kingdom Treasures including Philosopher's Stone, and a Black Market giving Spoils, Diadem, etc.  Use a Native Village from the Black Market deck to draw the hand.
8. Philosopher's Stone (around \$120)
Again, the size of largest possible deck is around 600.
9. Copper (\$99, maybe a bit more)
Coppersmith!  Plus King's Court, Band of Misfits, Procession, Graverobber, Rogue, Throne Room... see http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4409.msg98564#msg98564.  It's possible you can do better than this, but I doubt it beats Philosopher's Stone.
10. Forager (\$23, I think)
Black Market with all the Kingdom Treasures, and something for Spoils, Potion, Platinum.

How'd you do?  Harder than you thought?  Anyone get 100?!

Edit:  Top 3 scores so far
• O (96)
• Schneau (85)
• qmech (84)
Average score so far:  67.111 (9 entries)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 09:43:17 pm by wuthefwasthat »
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#### Grujah

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2012, 07:05:21 am »
0

My list, without looking anything up or referencing card lists or so:

Pirate Ship
Band of Misfits (acting as Pirate Ship)
Vault
Secret Chamber
Bank
Philosopher's Stone
Forager
Salvager

Now, lemme count my points, feel pretty confident.

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#### Grujah

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 07:13:52 am »
+1

My result:
Got _8_/10 of the list correct. Forgot damn Storageroom (Mostly because Vault/SC were last addition to my list, and I forgot this exists) and Copper (Tricksy Hobbitses). I listed numbers #11 and #12 instead.

This brings me to 75 points.

Great challenge.
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#### Grujah

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 07:20:35 am »
+1

Also, about one of the cards in 10+ range:
Trade Route Max is 13\$, i think. You only put coins on supply piles, not on stuff in BM.
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#### Powerman

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 08:20:21 am »
0

I disagree with your number 10.  Let's say you have 60 copper, a black market, and a coppersmith set aside on your native village mat.  Play the native village, put it all in hand.  Play the black market, playing all 60 of your copper.  Now play the coppersmith, which adds \$60 worth of buying value.  So therefore, (because of black market shenanigans) I think it should be coppersmith.
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A man on a mission.

#### AJD

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2012, 09:16:12 am »
0

My list, without looking anything up:

Vault
Secret Chamber
Bank
Pirate Ship
Philosopher's Stone
Forager
Salvager
...Platinum?

I'm pretty sure Platinum isn't on the list, but I can't think what I might be missing.
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#### AJD

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2012, 09:19:11 am »
+1

I disagree with your number 10.  Let's say you have 60 copper, a black market, and a coppersmith set aside on your native village mat.  Play the native village, put it all in hand.  Play the black market, playing all 60 of your copper.  Now play the coppersmith, which adds \$60 worth of buying value.  So therefore, (because of black market shenanigans) I think it should be coppersmith.

That is not correct. Coppersmith never gives you money. It only changes the value of future Coppers played this turn.
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#### AJD

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 09:20:23 am »
0

I'm pretty sure Platinum isn't on the list, but I can't think what I might be missing.

Gah, Band of Misfits! But does that really give you +\$, or is it really Pirate Ship that gives you the +\$ when you play Band of Misfits as it?
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#### Grujah

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2012, 12:21:51 pm »
+1

I disagree with your number 10.  Let's say you have 60 copper, a black market, and a coppersmith set aside on your native village mat.  Play the native village, put it all in hand.  Play the black market, playing all 60 of your copper.  Now play the coppersmith, which adds \$60 worth of buying value.  So therefore, (because of black market shenanigans) I think it should be coppersmith.

That is not correct. Coppersmith never gives you money. It only changes the value of future Coppers played this turn.

True. DXV confirms it doesn't work like that, here

I'm pretty sure Platinum isn't on the list, but I can't think what I might be missing.

Gah, Band of Misfits! But does that really give you +\$, or is it really Pirate Ship that gives you the +\$ when you play Band of Misfits as it?

It's BoM that gives you money. Question is "you have X money. You play a card single card A, and now you have X+Y money." Card played was BoM acting as PS, not a PS.
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#### ycz6

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2012, 03:28:55 pm »
0

Welp, here's my attempt:

1 Vault
2 Secret Chamber
3 Catacombs
4 Bank
5 Pirate Ship
7 Philosopher's Stone
8 Forager
10 Salvager

Edit: Okay, in my defense, I haven't played with Dark Ages, so I couldn't remember the name of Store Room and thought it was Catacombs instead. Consolation points plz?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 03:31:12 pm by ycz6 »
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#### Grujah

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2012, 03:36:14 pm »
0

Heh, saw that and though it was quite funny.

Anyway, 57 points, 67 with consolidation .

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#### qmech

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2012, 03:54:00 pm »
0

Gorgeous challenge!  Here's my list:

Pirate Ship
Vault
Secret Chamber
New similar card from DA
Bank
Philosopher's Stone
Copper
DA card that counts different types of treasure in trash

Hope you'll let the descriptive DA references slide.
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#### qmech

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2012, 03:59:40 pm »
0

Missed the BoM.  Loved finding it out though!  I reckon that at 100-10-8+2=84.

EDIT: miscounting, then correcting for the interval.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:54:15 am by qmech »
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#### bitwise

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2012, 03:49:59 am »
0

Here's my list before looking at what you have:

Copper
Bank
Vault
Band of Misfits (see below lol)
Secret Chamber
Storeroom (not sure I have the right name here, but I mean the one in dark ages for 3 that gives a buy, discards for cards, then discards for money)
Philosopher's Stone
Forager (also not sure I have the right name here, but I mean the one in dark ages for 3 that is like trade route but nonterminal and counts distinct treasures in trash)

Edit: Guess I didn't do so well. Oops.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:52:47 am by bitwise »
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#### O

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2012, 06:10:11 am »
0

without looking

1 Pirate Ship = 2 Band of Misfits: Pirate Ship, or Band of Misfits as Pirate ship. infinite
3 = Vault /4 = Secret Chamber /5= Storeroom: Vault for everything, Storeroom for everything, Secret Chamber for everything (too lazy to calculate), but its quite a lot (especially in 6P... 50 curses right? yikes.)
6: Diadem (tribute for 4 actions, BOM as tribute for 4 actions alone = 4*20*3=240, 10 TRed villages (20 actions) 4 piles 4 piles more of villages (50) Golem, Black market with tournament, etc... 240 + 20 + 50 + more actions. I'm sure 6 player nobles adds something here. About 340?
7: Bank: Der be a lot of treasures, so I went by iso standards. Native village pile for draw, 10 piles * 9 for others plus original treasures is like 250
8: Forager (you said unlimited black market deck, there's like 150 differently named cards right?)
9: Copper (with some smithing help) 90\$
10: Philosopher's stone: roughly 1/5 of vault, etc. so like 80.

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#### Grujah

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2012, 06:14:24 am »
0

O is the best so far.
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#### O

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2012, 06:17:52 am »
0

I derped on forager a bit

But pirate ship was infinite since alchemy, with possession. I didn't even think about Dark Ages there)
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#### NoMoreFun

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2012, 06:30:16 am »
0

On copper
10 king's courted coppersmiths and 10 king's courted bands of misfits acting as coppersmiths bring a coppers value up to 61. Played with a counterfeit that's \$122 from the copper play. Where is everyone getting 90 from?
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#### Grujah

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2012, 06:33:47 am »
0

On copper
10 king's courted coppersmiths and 10 king's courted bands of misfits acting as coppersmiths bring a coppers value up to 61. Played with a counterfeit that's \$122 from the copper play. Where is everyone getting 90 from?

No Counterfeit, a single card played. Among those KCs you can put in Processions to trash coppersmiths and than Graverobbers to get them back, I guess... But not sure.
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#### O

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2012, 06:35:16 am »
0

On copper
10 king's courted coppersmiths and 10 king's courted bands of misfits acting as coppersmiths bring a coppers value up to 61. Played with a counterfeit that's \$122 from the copper play. Where is everyone getting 90 from?

No Counterfeit, a single card played. Among those KCs you can put in Processions to trash coppersmiths and than Graverobbers to get them back, I guess... But not sure.

That is correct

NoMoreFun you might want to spoiler that first two words :p
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#### pst

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2012, 06:38:41 am »
+1

NoMoreFun you might want to spoiler that first two words :p

I don't understand the excessive spoiler-tagging in threads like this. When you read the first post you know that everything that follows will be spoilers, more or less.
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#### NoMoreFun

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2012, 06:57:55 am »
+3

I derped on forager a bit

But pirate ship was infinite since alchemy, with possession. I didn't even think about Dark Ages there)

I don't think you could do this, since it only stops the possessed players cards from being trashed, and he'd be the one playing the pirate ship
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#### O

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2012, 06:59:27 am »
0

I derped on forager a bit

But pirate ship was infinite since alchemy, with possession. I didn't even think about Dark Ages there)

I don't think you could do this, since it only stops the possessed players cards from being trashed, and he'd be the one playing the pirate ship

derp......
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#### qmech

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2012, 02:30:24 pm »
0

I don't understand the excessive spoiler-tagging in threads like this. When you read the first post you know that everything that follows will be spoilers, more or less.
I was in two minds, but decided to follow the precedent.  I suppose the justification is that spoilering each post makes it easier to look at things a bit at a time.

On copper
10 king's courted coppersmiths and 10 king's courted bands of misfits acting as coppersmiths bring a coppers value up to 61. Played with a counterfeit that's \$122 from the copper play. Where is everyone getting 90 from?

Good point.  I only got up to 30, and can't see better than ~60 with BoM.
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#### Titandrake

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##### Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2012, 03:24:43 pm »
0

Alright, well I don't remember Dark Ages cards that well, but here goes.

1. Vault - hundreds (~ all cards in kingdom)
2. Secret Chamber - hundreds (~all cards)
3. That DA cellar variant that can discard for money - hundreds (~all cards)

The actual values between 1 and 3 might not be the same, but I don't feel like figuring out which one works the best.

4. Bank - hundreds (all treasures in kingdom, < all cards)
5. Trade Route - 13 (Est, Duc, Prov, Col, 9 Kingdom victory cards)
6. Salvager - 11 (Trash col)
7. Death Cart - 5
8. Plat -5
9. Poor House - 4
10. FG - 4

Edit: OH YEAH 34/100
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:28:27 pm by Titandrake »
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