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[kilgoretrout103]

Given the message on goko.com:

Hello Everyone


As you probably know by now, the first 48 hours of Goko’s public life didn’t go well.
As we moved out of beta and into the live world, we learned that we had problems
with our backend and weren’t able to scale fast enough to support the load.
As a result, we experienced numerous problems and created a really bad experience
for the fans trying to access our games or even get on our website.


We sincerely apologize to the fans trying to play our games and to the broader tech
and HTML5 communities that showed so much support for our vision at launch.
We've made the decision to roll our games and game site back into beta for testing.
We will go live again when it's ready. We’d love to say that will happen tomorrow or
next week, but that’s not the right way to proceed.


If you want to help us test the games before they go live again, or test future games
from Goko, please click here to become a beta tester. Everyone will eventually get in
and we’ll add people as quickly as we can.


Sincerely,

The Goko Team

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

(P.S. good on Goko for taking more time to polish their product)

[blueblimp]

I'm not DXV, but I would rate the chance of playing DA on isotropic as about 0%. Once Goko is back up, the availability of Dark Ages there will be a HUGE draw to get people to try it.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the isotropocalypse delayed.

[kilgoretrout103]

You're probably right. I guess the logic would be this: even if iso gets Dark Ages for the last few weeks of its life, people who want to play with DA will have to go to goko regardless once iso shuts down.

[Donald X.]

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

I suspect that the people who feel that way, and are in the position to make that call, are not so interested in that torrent being available.

And if this seems wrong, I think that's because the way intellectual property works is so thoroughly messed up in this day and age. But wanting a different system doesn't just fix things, and some people base their careers on that messed up system, and sometimes you aren't just one of those people, you are also doing business with more of those people.

[werothegreat]

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

I suspect that the people who feel that way, and are in the position to make that call, are not so interested in that torrent being available.

And if this seems wrong, I think that's because the way intellectual property works is so thoroughly messed up in this day and age. But wanting a different system doesn't just fix things, and some people base their careers on that messed up system, and sometimes you aren't just one of those people, you are also doing business with more of those people.

<-- Torrents all the time...   <.<

[aaron0013]

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

I suspect that the people who feel that way, and are in the position to make that call, are not so interested in that torrent being available.

And if this seems wrong, I think that's because the way intellectual property works is so thoroughly messed up in this day and age. But wanting a different system doesn't just fix things, and some people base their careers on that messed up system, and sometimes you aren't just one of those people, you are also doing business with more of those people.

So I take it that's a big NO...........

[popsofctown]

Why did we get to torrent Hinterlands? That disincentivizes buying paper/theatre hinterlands.  It's the same situation. 

[Donald X.]

Why did we get to torrent Hinterlands? That disincentivizes buying paper/theatre hinterlands.  It's the same situation.

We weren't selling a DVD of Hinterlands at the time, and, since we're incredibly evil people, we decided, why not let people watch it? And hey for all we knew someone would like it enough to go for seeing it on the big screen.

Now you can say, you aren't selling Dark Ages either, and I can say, that could be just a couple days away, I do not need you to see that difference but I can see it for sure. Or you can say, but I did see Hinterlands in the theater because I liked the DVD, and I can say, great, but that does not stop DVD's from being products.

[Donald X.]

So I take it that's a big NO...........

I would suggest asking funsockets, but you know, they are *busy*.

[popsofctown]

Ok, perhaps I misinterpreted the eta on goko

[Ozle]

Are people seriously still asking things like this?

They are going to sell the product online, they were not before so they let people use it for free. Now they have an agreement for someone to sell it online, so they are not going to release any more free stuff, and take back the free stuff thats already up.

I'm failing to see whats so hard to grasp here.

I'm also failing to see how you intend to accomplish changing thier minds by writing about it on a forum, if they were going to change thier mind or break the contract with GOKO then im sure we would be the first to know about it.

Seriously people, we love dominion, but get a grip!

[popsofctown]

I don't think it's outrageous.  If it will be months until goko's release, it might legitimately maximize profits to hype online dominion by letting dark ages be on iso

[Donald X.]

Ok, perhaps I misinterpreted the eta on goko

I think there is in fact a miscommunication here, or intentional noncommunication, I dunno. Going from beta to final version is two steps; the intermediate step is like the final version but with the significant issue that you can only interact with people on your server. I should be learning not to predict any dates for things, but you know, surely the intermediate step is a lot easier to reach than the final version.

[popsofctown]

Ok.  Therein lies the confusions.  0 VP

[Powerman]

Dark Ages on Iso? - slim to none (none's winning)

Iso staying open for an extra time period because of the delay in release? - I'd say this might be plausible... 50-50.

[bozzball]

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

I suspect that the people who feel that way, and are in the position to make that call, are not so interested in that torrent being available.

And if this seems wrong, I think that's because the way intellectual property works is so thoroughly messed up in this day and age. But wanting a different system doesn't just fix things, and some people base their careers on that messed up system, and sometimes you aren't just one of those people, you are also doing business with more of those people.

This. You want to enjoy Dark Ages (as I do - in England) - you could always try it in card form. I have heard good things.

[Kirian]

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

I suspect that the people who feel that way, and are in the position to make that call, are not so interested in that torrent being available.

And if this seems wrong, I think that's because the way intellectual property works is so thoroughly messed up in this day and age. But wanting a different system doesn't just fix things, and some people base their careers on that messed up system, and sometimes you aren't just one of those people, you are also doing business with more of those people.

This. You want to enjoy Dark Ages (as I do - in England) - you could always try it in card form. I have heard good things.

What are these "cards" of which you speak?  Some sort of manipulable physical item?

(I have all the expansions except DA, sleeved, in two big boxes...)

[bozzball]

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

I suspect that the people who feel that way, and are in the position to make that call, are not so interested in that torrent being available.

And if this seems wrong, I think that's because the way intellectual property works is so thoroughly messed up in this day and age. But wanting a different system doesn't just fix things, and some people base their careers on that messed up system, and sometimes you aren't just one of those people, you are also doing business with more of those people.

This. You want to enjoy Dark Ages (as I do - in England) - you could always try it in card form. I have heard good things.

What are these "cards" of which you speak?  Some sort of manipulable physical item?

(I have all the expansions except DA, sleeved, in two big boxes...)

Yeah, small rectangular cardboard devices from before the electronic age. People used to put them on a table and then use them to pass money from the poor and stupid to the rich and clever.

[kilgoretrout103]

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

That makes sense to me. Thanks for your answer! Now I just can't wait until my local store gets a copy....

[dougz]

For what it's worth, I did ask about putting DA up on iso after the aborted launch and they (goko) said no.

There's a small window of time between a new expansion being spoiled and it being widely available when a site can get a big boost from being the only way to play the shiny new thing.  iso itself got a big boost from Prosperity, early in the site's existence (and that window was extra-long because of the shipping accident with the printed copies).  I imagine goko wanted the same thing from Dark Ages; there may yet be time for them to get some benefit.

[popsofctown]

For what it's worth, I did ask about putting DA up on iso after the aborted launch and they (goko) said no.

There's a small window of time between a new expansion being spoiled and it being widely available when a site can get a big boost from being the only way to play the shiny new thing.  iso itself got a big boost from Prosperity, early in the site's existence (and that window was extra-long because of the shipping accident with the printed copies).  I imagine goko wanted the same thing from Dark Ages; there may yet be time for them to get some benefit.

Totally.  I want to be clear that I only made the post about hinterlands because my impression of the beta time was much larger than that window. I get it now

[Varsinor]

For what it's worth, I did ask about putting DA up on iso after the aborted launch and they (goko) said no.

OK, so no Dark Ages on Iso.
But what about at least leaving Iso online as is between August 22 and the actual launch of Goko?

[Jfrisch]

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

Ordinarily I follow you on this stuff but I don't agree with you're analogy. Torrenting basically implies against the wishes of the designers. To anyone who reads this forum it's fairly clear that Iso isn't about to actively disrespect your wishes. So asking whether something can go on Iso is more equivalent to asking whether we can have songs from DXV's great new album on an unofficial, but recognized, fan site (which has songs from his other albums).

[polonkus]

Is it suddenly possible we might be able to enjoy Dark Ages on Isotropic in the meantime? DXV, are you in a position to comment on this? I don't want to get my hopes up, but man, that would be great.

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

Ordinarily I follow you on this stuff but I don't agree with you're analogy. Torrenting basically implies against the wishes of the designers. To anyone who reads this forum it's fairly clear that Iso isn't about to actively disrespect your wishes. So asking whether something can go on Iso is more equivalent to asking whether we can have songs from DXV's great new album on an unofficial, but recognized, fan site (which has songs from his other albums).

But now DXV isn't the indie band, he's signed to the big label. And the Goko VP of monetization is def not going to be onboard with that.

[Davio]

Yes, Dark Ages will be the main selling point for Goko.

On the other hand, if people would experience the greatness of DA on Iso and get hooked by it, they may be more inclined to cross over instead of the other way around.

[dougz]

But what about at least leaving Iso online as is between August 22 and the actual launch of Goko?

I expect that iso will be able to stay up until a week after goko launches, whenever that is, which was basically their original plan.  I have not actually heard anything official from them (other than "August 22"), but I think that's because my contact (Trisha) is currently at GenCon and is busy with other things right now.

[Jedit]

To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

That's a very poor analogy, Donald.  Dark Ages is not a movie that you only want to see once in a while but has a period where you can't see it legally.  It's a game that people want to play repeatedly and indefinitely.  If I want to see a movie after it's left cinemas but before the DVD release then I have to torrent it.  Technically, that removes any need for me to buy the DVD because I will still have my torrented copy after the DVD comes out.  However, if Dark Ages was put on Iso then I could play there for free - but when Goko goes live for real I will have to pay if I want to play because Iso will go away and I won't have my "torrented copy" any more.

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso because they're not making any money from it so long as they remain in beta.  The idea that there is only a window where they can make peak profit from DA is a bad one, as it will encourage them to rush through the revision process and release another buggy product that will drive even more people away.  The idea is also wrong, unless Dark Ages is not a set that people will want to play with and would feel suckered out of their money if they bought it.

[Donald X.]

Dark Ages is not a movie that you only want to see once in a while but has a period where you can't see it legally.  It's a game that people want to play repeatedly and indefinitely.

It's true that people tend to play a game more times than they watch a movie. And I would like to think that Dark Ages is all things to all people. But surely there is a game that you felt satisfied with buying and yet only played ten times total, if that. Some people will do nothing but play with Dark Ages for the rest of their lives, while others only have so many plays in them.

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso

Disagree!

The idea that there is only a window where they can make peak profit from DA is a bad one, as it will encourage them to rush through the revision process and release another buggy product that will drive even more people away.

I don't know if you are picturing me standing outside their offices yelling "peak profit!" or what. Doug posted about this peak profit thing, not me. If you think they want another failed launch, I don't know what to tell you, that makes no sense. They should want it out ASAP for sure, and they can want it out ASAP and yet not blow it. inb4 "not those guys lol!"

[dnkywin]

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso because they're not making any money from it so long as they remain in beta.

Disagree!

Added Jedit's logic back in.

Donald, is it possible you could add some insight into why you disagree? [Please don't use an analogy (for the sake of blue dogs everywhere).] On a slighlty related note, right now it seems like Goko is trying to suppress everyone and try to pressure them into buying an unpolished product, and honestly it's kind of a big turnoff. I feel as if more people would be excited about Dark Ages on Goko if we were given a taste of it on isotropic.

[Donald X.]

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso

Disagree!

Added Jedit's logic back in.

Fixed your quote hack! That "because" clause is changing zilch here.

Donald, is it possible you could add some insight into why you disagree? [Please don't use an analogy (for the sake of blue dogs everywhere).] On a slighlty related note, right now it seems like Goko is trying to suppress everyone and try to pressure them into buying an unpolished product, and honestly it's kind of a big turnoff. I feel as if more people would be excited about Dark Ages on Goko if we were given a taste of it on isotropic.

I can only spend so much of my life interacting with people who are unhappy about Goko. Complaining about previous times I posted doesn't help your case there. And you aren't asking for anything I haven't already said.

[O]

*raises hand*

I'm more likely to buy Goko because DA is not on isotropic. Not at the ridiculous 75$, but still more likely to buy it.

DXV is right: holding back DA from isotropic is good economic sense for Goko/RGG

[Captain_Frisk]

Just because I enjoy arguing with O. 

On a scale from 1 to 5 - All things considered, how do you feel about your relationship as a customer with Goko?

On a scale from 1 to 5 - How likely is the answer to the previous question going to be a factor in purchasing products and / or services from Goko in the near future?

Imagine that you read the following press release on goko.com

Dear Dominion fans,

We @goko apologize for the issues that occured during our attempted launch on 8/16.  We have re-entered beta status and will relaunch after several issues have been addressed, from the performance issues that were uncovered at launch to the security issues raised by our beta testing community.

In the meantime - we, along with our partners Rio Grande Games and Donald X. have authorized existing unofficial implementations (such as isotropic and androminion) to release [subset - possibly full set of Dark Ages cards] to the community until our official version is ready to be released to the public again.

We'd also like to apologize for the section of the rulebook that implied that the unofficial versions were illegal and didn't support the designers.  Obviously, many of these implementations have been operating with the permission of the designer and Rio Grande Games in advance of an officially licensed product - and have contributed greatly to the popularization of the great game of dominion - as well as being used to beta test the product prior to the physical card launch.  One week after we go live - these developers of these products have all agreed to take these offline, and then any future implementations that may arise will be operating illegally.  The rulebook was written with this future state in mind - and didn't mean to imply that other popular implementations were at this time illegal.

Please enjoy previewing dark ages until we're ready for you to play it over at goko.

Regards,

<X>

On a scale from 1 to 5 - how would you feel about your relationship with goko if they released this announcement?

If they did this they could require any implementation that wants to launch those cards have a splash message indicating that the preview of the Dark Ages cards is sponsored by goko - etc. etc.

Hey look at that - some action from goko that might actually result in positive press from the community.

[carstimon]

Here's anecdotal evidence.  [insert: for "they get more money because DA is not on iso"]

I'm trying to play less dominion online.  I've played maybe 3 games on iso in the passed week.  If dark ages was on iso right now I would play it.  I recently bought more physical dominion to satisfy my appetite.
Since I'm trying to kick the habit, I probably won't buy all the expansions on Goko.  I might buy dark ages though, just because I would never have had the opportunity play dark ages in an online (good players) setting.  If it had been on iso it would be on the same footing as all the expansions- low interest.

[eHalcyon]

As much as I'd love it, it would be bad for them to let Androminion release an update with Dark Ages.  Just because it gets taken out of the store doesn't mean I won't still have the app on my phone.

[LastFootnote]

I'm not arguing for Dark Ages on isotropic, but there's no way Goko's getting a boost from me by having Dark Ages before it's in stores. That would require me to buy Dark Ages on Goko, which would presumably involve me giving them my credit card information. Goko may be able someday to regain my trust, but it will probably involve acknowledging that they have severe security issues and hiring a reputable security consultant. That's the bare minimum.

[cactus]

"Hey look at that - some action from goko that might actually result in positive press from the community."

Two mindsets:

1/ The most important thing to us is that people are able to enjoy the game they love to the fullest extent. If our implementation of the game (and the way we do business) is based on this principle the players will like us and our implementation of the game. They will speak well of us to many other people and success and ultimately profits will follow.

vs

2/ The most important thing to us is our (short term) term financial interest. If the experiences of player suffer a little bit, well that doesn't matter because we have done a deal to be the exclusive provider of this service so people can't go elsewhere. We will however give some lip-service to "our customers being important to us" and doing an implementation that is true to the nature of the original game.


Now I am not saying the second option is definitely true of Goko (please prove me wrong), or that they should necessarily allow DA to be available or whatever.... but everytime they make a decision to give the player base a poorer game play experience because it is in Goko's financial interests to do so opens them up to people feeling aggrieved about their motives and the way they do business. When it comes down to it I really just want to play dominion on line with the most possible cards and best possible interface/implementation. If I feel like Goko trying to ensure their finances is the reason is the reason I can't do that then yes I am going to feel peeved.

Sometime in the indeterminate future some of the powers that be will remember that the game play is the important thing and the reason we're all here in the first place.... a version of dark ages will get up online.... and we can all go and play it a have a good time instead of spending our time here posting....

[yuma]

But what about at least leaving Iso online as is between August 22 and the actual launch of Goko?

I expect that iso will be able to stay up until a week after goko launches, whenever that is, which was basically their original plan.  I have not actually heard anything official from them (other than "August 22"), but I think that's because my contact (Trisha) is currently at GenCon and is busy with other things right now.

do we have a confirmation on that yet?

[Orange]

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso

Disagree!

Until I see respected members of this community tell me that Goko is equal to or greater than Isotropic, or I can judge that for myself for free, I'm not going to give them a nickel.  We have already seen what can be done for free; why would we pay for an inferior product, even if the free product is taken away?

[Kuildeous]

Until I see respected members of this community tell me that Goko is equal to or greater than Isotropic, or I can judge that for myself for free, I'm not going to give them a nickel.  We have already seen what can be done for free; why would we pay for an inferior product, even if the free product is taken away?

I'm not sure I follow that argument.

Anything can be done for free. Hell, the entire Adobe Master Collection could be done for free. Diablo III could be done for free.

All it takes for something to be free is a willingness by the designer(s) to do the work in his spare time.

We had this with Doug. It was awesome, no doubt, that he was willing to put forth this work in his spare time. It an anomaly, though. Most products of that quality are not free to use. Even products that seem free to the end user (such as Facebook) are supported through other revenues.

So, great, Doug produced a professional-level product and didn't ask for a single cent, which was great for the community. Just because Doug was a paragon of generosity doesn't mean that it's appropriate to compare his product and pricing model to someone else who is trying to make a buck on it.

Besides, you say that you want to judge it for free before spending a nickel. You can. It's already part of the pricing model. If you play the free game and like it, then spend money on the expansions. If you don't like it, then don't play online Dominion. The solution is already in place. There's no need for such finality before the product is even released.

[polonkus]

Besides, you say that you want to judge it for free before spending a nickel. You can. It's already part of the pricing model. If you play the free game and like it, then spend money on the expansions. If you don't like it, then don't play online Dominion. The solution is already in place. There's no need for such finality before the product is even released.

Except you can't, because it's completely broken, and no one has any idea when it is going to work.
Remember the context of this discussion is the possibility of having Dark Ages go live on Isotropic until Goko is actually released.

[Kuildeous]

Completely broken? That's the phrase you choose to describe Goko's product?

With such hyperbole being slung around, it's no wonder there are people out there who are terrified of trying Goko.

From my experience with the beta version, I can say that the game is not completely broken. Even when I first joined the beta, the game was not completely broken.

I wouldn't even say it's badly broken, but that can be in the eye of the beholder.

[jsh357]

Completely broken? That's the phrase you choose to describe Goko's product?

With such hyperbole being slung around, it's no wonder there are people out there who are terrified of trying Goko.

From my experience with the beta version, I can say that the game is not completely broken. Even when I first joined the beta, the game was not completely broken.

I wouldn't even say it's badly broken, but that can be in the eye of the beholder.

Agreed.  Goko definitely had problems (Security, connectivity, a few minor rules issues, the KC bug) but it's certainly a solid product for the most part and playable.  I have been frustrated at them since the failure to launch, but it has escalated out of hand to a degree. 

That said, I do hope the next beta update will have some of the new cards to test.  They should want to get Goko out cleaner and take measures to do so.

[Tombolo]

Completely broken? That's the phrase you choose to describe Goko's product?

It might be overstating it a bit, sure, but...let's not forget that there isn't actually even a product right now.  Maybe the beta is a magical place where the blue dogs roam free, but I can't get in there myself to look at it, so I am forced to rely on my experience with the launch and on secondhand info.  One is quite negative and the other is mixed at the very best.

[polonkus]

Completely broken? That's the phrase you choose to describe Goko's product?

With such hyperbole being slung around, it's no wonder there are people out there who are terrified of trying Goko.

From my experience with the beta version, I can say that the game is not completely broken. Even when I first joined the beta, the game was not completely broken.

I wouldn't even say it's badly broken, but that can be in the eye of the beholder.

Can you log in and play? No? Then it's broken, end of story.

Again, this thread is about the possiblity of DA on isotropic UNTIL THE ACTUAL GOKO LAUNCH.

[Kuildeous]

Again, this thread is about the possiblity of DA on isotropic UNTIL THE ACTUAL GOKO LAUNCH.

Which has been stated isn't going to happen.

You had your free lunch. That's great. Want dessert? That's not free. We must accept it and move on if we are to avoid going crazy. 

[polonkus]

Again, this thread is about the possiblity of DA on isotropic UNTIL THE ACTUAL GOKO LAUNCH.

Which has been stated isn't going to happen.

You had your free lunch. That's great. Want dessert? That's not free. We must accept it and move on if we are to avoid going crazy.

Someone posted an appropriate quote elsewhere recently.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. All progress, therefore, depends upon the unreasonable man."

[blueblimp]

Somehow I don't think that quote had in mind complaining on an internet forum.

[Tombolo]

I am not sure I like that quote.  You can most certainly change the world while operating within reason, and there is no guarantee that "progress" is always good or desirable.

[blueblimp]

I am not sure I like that quote.  You can most certainly change the world while operating within reason, and there is no guarantee that "progress" is always good or desirable.

I like it, because I think it's saying essentially "don't just learn to live with bad/annoying things, try to fix them", which is an attitude that does get stuff done.

[Tombolo]

Perhaps, but using the "reasonable" terminology just makes it comes across to me as a dressed-up version of YOLO.

[Jedit]

*raises hand*

I'm more likely to buy Goko because DA is not on isotropic. Not at the ridiculous 75$, but still more likely to buy it.

DXV is right: holding back DA from isotropic is good economic sense for Goko/RGG

Both you and Donald have missed one fundamental point: Isotropic is not in competition with Goko.  By the time DA is available to buy on Goko, there will be no Isotropic and therefore DA will not be on it. 

[kilgoretrout103]

*raises hand*

I'm more likely to buy Goko because DA is not on isotropic. Not at the ridiculous 75$, but still more likely to buy it.

DXV is right: holding back DA from isotropic is good economic sense for Goko/RGG

Both you and Donald have missed one fundamental point: Isotropic is not in competition with Goko.  By the time DA is available to buy on Goko, there will be no Isotropic and therefore DA will not be on it.

I think the idea is that there will be pent-up demand. Like, maybe there would be people who have there fill of Dark Ages on isotropic over the next few weeks, such that they're no longer willing to pay when it switches to isotropic. Or maybe I'll be so Dark Ages starved that I'll pay whatever goko wants just to get to try it.

[Jedit]

I think the idea is that there will be pent-up demand. Like, maybe there would be people who have there fill of Dark Ages on isotropic over the next few weeks, such that they're no longer willing to pay when it switches to isotropic. Or maybe I'll be so Dark Ages starved that I'll pay whatever goko wants just to get to try it.

I know what the idea is.  On the other hand, by the same logic there will be no pent-up demand for anything but Dark Ages because we've had the chance to play all the other expansions to death.  That would be a reasonable thing to say if Dominion expansions were completely self-contained, but they're not; quite the reverse, they're designed for mix-and-match gameplay.  The only way people are going to get bored of Dark Ages in a few weeks is if it is a bad set that doesn't interact well with the others.

[How Bazaar]

Really, goko may have just killed my interest in Dominion.  The cards for Dark Ages looked fun, but I still haven't made an effort to buy the actual box because I haven't been enjoying them on iso.  I'll probably just skip it and end up quitting Dominion once iso goes down.

[Nighteyes5678]

Really, goko may have just killed my interest in Dominion.  The cards for Dark Ages looked fun, but I still haven't made an effort to buy the actual box because I haven't been enjoying them on iso.  I'll probably just skip it and end up quitting Dominion once iso goes down.

So, I don't want to pick on the fine user above, but this post was the most recent that illustrates a point of confusion.

What's the point of posting this? You know the following things about life: 1) A post here isn't going to change the game design. 2) The game's developer browses this forum.

All that a post like this is doing is kicking someone who made a wonderful product because of something out of his control. Do you really think that's a way to get anything good? At best, Donald will have the good sense and fortitude to be able to ignore the post (this kind of thing is hard for us creative types to ignore properly). At worst, it lessens his desire to make another awesome product for us to enjoy.

[bozzball]

Really, goko may have just killed my interest in Dominion.  The cards for Dark Ages looked fun, but I still haven't made an effort to buy the actual box because I haven't been enjoying them on iso.  I'll probably just skip it and end up quitting Dominion once iso goes down.

So, I don't want to pick on the fine user above, but this post was the most recent that illustrates a point of confusion.

What's the point of posting this?  ...

Also, buy the actual box. Dark Ages is awesome. Just wish I was in the goko beta so I could play them more often.

[Tombolo]

What's the point of posting this?

I felt somewhat similarly at one point, so I'll take a stab at it.  Presumably, if enough people make posts to that effect, that's pressure on Goko to straighten up and fly right.  People bailing on their flagship game due mainly to their implementation ain't the best for business.  Heck, I've heard rumors that they've been fixing some of the stuff we've been griping about, even. 

If nothing else, though, it's a way to vent.  Maybe it's melodramatic, but having a strong interest suddenly killed by shenanigans IS pretty upsetting, so there's only so much I can fault somebody for venting that frustration even if there's not much "point."  Had I decided to give up on Goko, I would've probably made a similar post just out of frustration.

[Kuildeous]

I'm a little confused as to how something that Goko does with its online implementation can kill an interest in Dominion. Even if Goko churned out the worst Zynga-style game with horrible overlapping hit areas and hard-to-read text, I would still love Dominion. I just wouldn't love it on Goko. If all it takes is an implementation that you disagree with, then I have to doubt your interest in Dominion.

But I suppose there are people out there whose interest in a game are that tenuous. I just cannot fathom it.

[Insomniac]

There is also people who have never played on Iso and refuse to because they want an official implementation. I have one such friend who loves dominion but won't play on Iso or anything because it's not official, he wants an official app on his iPhone.

[shMerker]

Kuildeus, the point is looking at it from Goko's perspective, where they don't much care if people are playing Dominion but not using their app. Tombolo was talking about people losing interest in the Goko version specifically.

[Kuildeous]

Kuildeus, the point is looking at it from Goko's perspective, where they don't much care if people are playing Dominion but not using their app. Tombolo was talking about people losing interest in the Goko version specifically.

Tombolo may have been, but I was referring to this message that does say that the person will probably give up Dominion entirely:

Really, goko may have just killed my interest in Dominion.  The cards for Dark Ages looked fun, but I still haven't made an effort to buy the actual box because I haven't been enjoying them on iso.  I'll probably just skip it and end up quitting Dominion once iso goes down.

[Grujah]

There is also people who have never played on Iso and refuse to because they want an official implementation. I have one such friend who loves dominion but won't play on Iso or anything because it's not official, he wants an official app on his iPhone.

Typical Apple-buyer snob, IMHO.

[werothegreat]

There is also people who have never played on Iso and refuse to because they want an official implementation. I have one such friend who loves dominion but won't play on Iso or anything because it's not official, he wants an official app on his iPhone.

Typical Apple-buyer snob, IMHO.

Did you tell him that iso is official?  I mean, it was used to test the damn game, it doesn't get more official than that.

[Fabian]

I'm a little confused as to how something that Goko does with its online implementation can kill an interest in Dominion.

This is a joke right?

If it's not, I hate to tell you this but isotropic is being shut down because of Goko. Sorry to be the one to bring the bad news

[Kuildeous]

I'm a little confused as to how something that Goko does with its online implementation can kill an interest in Dominion.

This is a joke right?

If it's not, I hate to tell you this but isotropic is being shut down because of Goko. Sorry to be the one to bring the bad news

I'm aware of Isotropic shutting down. What I'm not grasping is how someone else can dictate your interest in Dominion.

I like Dominion. I like playing it with my friends. I like killing time with Andorominion when standing in line. I have enjoyed the few times I played it on Isotropic. If those things go away, I'll still like Dominion. Granted, if I don't have friends to play with, then I'll be hosed, but I still have an interest in Dominion.

Even if Donald X. releases a horrible expansion, it still won't kill my interest in Dominion. I just won't be interested in that part of the game.

[Fabian]

That's cool that you like those things about Dominion. Now imagine someone else who likes other things about Dominion. Specifically (to save us both time), imagine someone who likes the isotropic part of Dominion.

[Kuildeous]

That's cool that you like those things about Dominion. Now imagine someone else who likes other things about Dominion. Specifically (to save us both time), imagine someone who likes the isotropic part of Dominion.

I suppose. I still can't see how someone can lose interest in the game itself. The game doesn't change--just the medium. I've heard of people using chips instead of cards. It's different, and I probably wouldn't like it. It still wouldn't make me lose interest in the game.

I can see where you're coming from; I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of claiming to enjoy the game only as long as it's on Isotropic. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but I'll accept that such a thing is possible.

[Tombolo]

I was somewhere between the two, honestly.  Goko couldn't KILL my interest in the entire game, but it could cripple it.  I only have two real life friends who play (well, plus a forumer who lives near me that wants to play sometime), and nobody else that I can talk into it, so if we assume for the sake of argument that Goko turns out to be an unplayable mess, Dominion will go from something I play a few times a day (and discuss a bunch online) to something I play...maybe one night out of the month when schedules actually align properly.  It's hard to stay interested in something I can't play.  Heck, I couldn't even tell you what half the Dark Ages cards do, for that exact reason. (finally get to try it Friday )

[How Bazaar]

I'll elaborate.  I have all boxes and promos except for DA.  I love 2-player dominion.  Iso is the best version of 2-player Dominion.  I have played the card version of Hinterlands maybe a handful of times, but it doesn't feel like a waste of money because I play on iso so much during downtime throughout my day.  If Dark Ages was on iso, I probably would have already bought the box, but as I'm not interested in the goko version, I will probably not end up buying the box because I'm not going to get enough play out of it.  When I get together with people to play games, we usually play other things that are more fun/interactive for 3-5 people.  Hope that helps.  I'm just one customer sharing my POV.  That's all.

[Insomniac]

There is also people who have never played on Iso and refuse to because they want an official implementation. I have one such friend who loves dominion but won't play on Iso or anything because it's not official, he wants an official app on his iPhone.

Typical Apple-buyer snob, IMHO.

Hate macs, love my iPhone, but have an android tablet.

How's that fit into your apple buyer snob philosophy?

[eHalcyon]

There is also people who have never played on Iso and refuse to because they want an official implementation. I have one such friend who loves dominion but won't play on Iso or anything because it's not official, he wants an official app on his iPhone.

Typical Apple-buyer snob, IMHO.

Hate macs, love my iPhone, but have an android tablet.

How's that fit into your apple buyer snob philosophy?

Selective Apple snob.  Maybe a touch of Hipster.  Apple is too mainstream now, so it's time to slowly distance yourself...

[Kahryl]

I suppose. I still can't see how someone can lose interest in the game itself. The game doesn't change--just the medium. I've heard of people using chips instead of cards. It's different, and I probably wouldn't like it. It still wouldn't make me lose interest in the game.

I can see where you're coming from; I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of claiming to enjoy the game only as long as it's on Isotropic. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but I'll accept that such a thing is possible.

Hey look, I'm taking away your pinball machine. But I'll give you the cardgame version of it. You can do all the same things with all the same rules, you just need your whole living room floor to do it and calculate the physics yourself and it happens at 1/10,000th the speed. What are you complaining about? Implementation doesn't matter.

[werothegreat]

I suppose. I still can't see how someone can lose interest in the game itself. The game doesn't change--just the medium. I've heard of people using chips instead of cards. It's different, and I probably wouldn't like it. It still wouldn't make me lose interest in the game.

I can see where you're coming from; I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of claiming to enjoy the game only as long as it's on Isotropic. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but I'll accept that such a thing is possible.

Hey look, I'm taking away your pinball machine. But I'll give you the cardgame version of it. You can do all the same things with all the same rules, you just need your whole living room floor to do it and calculate the physics yourself and it happens at 1/10,000th the speed. What are you complaining about? Implementation doesn't matter.

I take it you've never played Solitaire with real cards, then.

[Kahryl]

I suppose. I still can't see how someone can lose interest in the game itself. The game doesn't change--just the medium. I've heard of people using chips instead of cards. It's different, and I probably wouldn't like it. It still wouldn't make me lose interest in the game.

I can see where you're coming from; I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of claiming to enjoy the game only as long as it's on Isotropic. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but I'll accept that such a thing is possible.

Hey look, I'm taking away your pinball machine. But I'll give you the cardgame version of it. You can do all the same things with all the same rules, you just need your whole living room floor to do it and calculate the physics yourself and it happens at 1/10,000th the speed. What are you complaining about? Implementation doesn't matter.

I take it you've never played Solitaire with real cards, then.

Sure I have? I even prefer it. Solitaire is a simple enough game that the satisfaction of handling real cards is worth the slight increase in micromanagement.

While we're making random guesses about each other, I bet you've never eaten a green-frosted donut.

[Kirian]

I suppose. I still can't see how someone can lose interest in the game itself. The game doesn't change--just the medium. I've heard of people using chips instead of cards. It's different, and I probably wouldn't like it. It still wouldn't make me lose interest in the game.

I can see where you're coming from; I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of claiming to enjoy the game only as long as it's on Isotropic. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but I'll accept that such a thing is possible.

Hey look, I'm taking away your pinball machine. But I'll give you the cardgame version of it. You can do all the same things with all the same rules, you just need your whole living room floor to do it and calculate the physics yourself and it happens at 1/10,000th the speed. What are you complaining about? Implementation doesn't matter.

I take it you've never played Solitaire with real cards, then.

I have, and it's awful.  But it doesn't really have a social aspect, now does it?

[eHalcyon]

I suppose. I still can't see how someone can lose interest in the game itself. The game doesn't change--just the medium. I've heard of people using chips instead of cards. It's different, and I probably wouldn't like it. It still wouldn't make me lose interest in the game.

I can see where you're coming from; I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of claiming to enjoy the game only as long as it's on Isotropic. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but I'll accept that such a thing is possible.

Hey look, I'm taking away your pinball machine. But I'll give you the cardgame version of it. You can do all the same things with all the same rules, you just need your whole living room floor to do it and calculate the physics yourself and it happens at 1/10,000th the speed. What are you complaining about? Implementation doesn't matter.

I take it you've never played Solitaire with real cards, then.

Sure I have? I even prefer it. Solitaire is a simple enough game that the satisfaction of handling real cards is worth the slight increase in micromanagement.

While we're making random guesses about each other, I bet you've never eaten a green-frosted donut.

I believe the point is that Dominion is a fun game to play IRL with other people, so why should you lose interest just because isotropic is going away?  That you even like Solitaire with real cards suggests that you should like Dominion with real cards too.  The satisfaction of handling real cards AND face-to-face interaction with other players is worth the moderate increase in micromanagement.

Is micromanagement even the right word there?  Meh.

[polonkus]

I suppose. I still can't see how someone can lose interest in the game itself. The game doesn't change--just the medium. I've heard of people using chips instead of cards. It's different, and I probably wouldn't like it. It still wouldn't make me lose interest in the game.

I can see where you're coming from; I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of claiming to enjoy the game only as long as it's on Isotropic. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but I'll accept that such a thing is possible.

Hey look, I'm taking away your pinball machine. But I'll give you the cardgame version of it. You can do all the same things with all the same rules, you just need your whole living room floor to do it and calculate the physics yourself and it happens at 1/10,000th the speed. What are you complaining about? Implementation doesn't matter.

I take it you've never played Solitaire with real cards, then.

Sure I have? I even prefer it. Solitaire is a simple enough game that the satisfaction of handling real cards is worth the slight increase in micromanagement.

While we're making random guesses about each other, I bet you've never eaten a green-frosted donut.

I believe the point is that Dominion is a fun game to play IRL with other people, so why should you lose interest just because isotropic is going away?  That you even like Solitaire with real cards suggests that you should like Dominion with real cards too.  The satisfaction of handling real cards AND face-to-face interaction with other players is worth the moderate increase in micromanagement.

Is micromanagement even the right word there?  Meh.

Not really. Even face-to-face I'd much rather everyone get their laptops out and we play on iso.
I tried this once, I was able to play 5 2p iso games in the time it took for one 3p paper game to be set up and played out.

I even preferred playing on a single laptop (multiple browsers and passing) to paper, although it was tricky not having people see each other's hands.

[Tombolo]

I dreamed last night that I opened this thread to see a post from Donald X. that said "Actually, yes."

 

[Fabian]

I suppose. I still can't see how someone can lose interest in the game itself. The game doesn't change--just the medium. I've heard of people using chips instead of cards. It's different, and I probably wouldn't like it. It still wouldn't make me lose interest in the game.

I can see where you're coming from; I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of claiming to enjoy the game only as long as it's on Isotropic. It sounds like hyperbole to me, but I'll accept that such a thing is possible.

Hey look, I'm taking away your pinball machine. But I'll give you the cardgame version of it. You can do all the same things with all the same rules, you just need your whole living room floor to do it and calculate the physics yourself and it happens at 1/10,000th the speed. What are you complaining about? Implementation doesn't matter.

I take it you've never played Solitaire with real cards, then.

Sure I have? I even prefer it. Solitaire is a simple enough game that the satisfaction of handling real cards is worth the slight increase in micromanagement.

While we're making random guesses about each other, I bet you've never eaten a green-frosted donut.

I believe the point is that Dominion is a fun game to play IRL with other people, so why should you lose interest just because isotropic is going away?  That you even like Solitaire with real cards suggests that you should like Dominion with real cards too.  The satisfaction of handling real cards AND face-to-face interaction with other players is worth the moderate increase in micromanagement.

Is micromanagement even the right word there?  Meh.

I believe everyone gets this is the point, and I believe almost everyone gets that some people have different preferences than other people and enjoy different things about things than other people do. Some people like playing Dominion exclusively 8p with their friends on drunken Friday nights and would never touch isotropic with a 10 foot pole, and some people like playing Dominion exclusively 2p on isotropic, and then there's probably people in between as well. Good for them.

I mean it's great that you're telling us all that x y and z "are worth" whatever it is they're worth, but perhaps you might be open to the possibility that other people have other preferences too. Winning an argument where you are telling other people how they should feel and what they should like etc is pretty tricky business.

ETA: This goes for everyone who can't fathom why someone would lose interest in a game when (in their opinion) the only good way of playing it is getting shut down, not specifically to you Halcyon.