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[Robz888]

Unless you meant lame and boring compared with the expanded game--as opposed to lame and boring compared to other games.

Dominion with the expansions is big and exciting, and base Dominion is lame and boring. Lame when compared to expanded Dominion, that is. It's moderate when compared to other games; other games that have won SdJ, anyway. But in a big expanded game like this one--big when compared to games with fewer expansions, small when compared to games with more expansions, if such things exist--it can be difficult for some people to remember the nice thing they had; nice compared to nothing at all, perhaps a little less nice than the expanded thing they have now--long story short (at least, of course, compared to longer stories), don't give people free pizza.

Well done. I can't give that enough likes!

[O]

Remember:  That price is for seven games.  Not one, seven.  Ten bucks a game really isn't that terrible.

If you want to claim this, you have to remember that one of those games (base) is pretty lame and boring, and many of the others are completely unplayable taken alone.

If the base game is so lame and boring, how the hell did RGG and DXV sell so many expansions and win Spiel des Jahres?  Just asking.  Unless you meant lame and boring compared with the expanded game--as opposed to lame and boring compared to other games.

On the shelf, it's 8 boxes (9 with Guilds, later).  It's a total of ~2700 cards, plus a bunch of extras, for retail ~$320.  If you're trying to suggest that there aren't 8 games there, well, you'll have to tell the retailers perhaps.  Oh, and tell RGG, because apparently Carcassone is just one game, as is RTFG, and all the maps for Power Grid.  And talk to Mayfair about how much they're gouging for all those Catan expansions--all one game!  And don't get me started on WOTC...

Sounds a bit ridiculous when said that way.  Huh.  Who'd have thought?

On the shelf =/= online. You're argument is pretty terrible; if everything you said there was true and applied equally online to irl, why isn't goko pricing at 320$ then? Why are MMOs only 5-12$/month? Why is the orange box like 50$, when it contains so many games that each have won so many awards? Why are there free, well developed games?

If someone plays MTG or Yugiouh or Pokemon or trading card game X online, they don't pay the thousands of dollars that they would have to for the equivalent OP decks IRL (ok this one's different because of collectability etc. but still)

I could go on and on...

[engineer]

Remember:  That price is for seven games.  Not one, seven.  Ten bucks a game really isn't that terrible.

If you want to claim this, you have to remember that one of those games (base) is pretty lame and boring, and many of the others are completely unplayable taken alone.

If the base game is so lame and boring, how the hell did RGG and DXV sell so many expansions and win Spiel des Jahres?  Just asking.  Unless you meant lame and boring compared with the expanded game--as opposed to lame and boring compared to other games.

On the shelf, it's 8 boxes (9 with Guilds, later).  It's a total of ~2700 cards, plus a bunch of extras, for retail ~$320.  If you're trying to suggest that there aren't 8 games there, well, you'll have to tell the retailers perhaps.  Oh, and tell RGG, because apparently Carcassone is just one game, as is RTFG, and all the maps for Power Grid.  And talk to Mayfair about how much they're gouging for all those Catan expansions--all one game!  And don't get me started on WOTC...

Sounds a bit ridiculous when said that way.  Huh.  Who'd have thought?

On the shelf =/= online. You're argument is pretty terrible; if everything you said there was true and applied equally online to irl, why isn't goko pricing at 320$ then? Why are MMOs only 5-12$/month? Why is the orange box like 50$, when it contains so many games that each have won so many awards? Why are there free, well developed games?

If someone plays MTG or Yugiouh or Pokemon or trading card game X online, they don't pay the thousands of dollars that they would have to for the equivalent OP decks IRL (ok this one's different because of collectability etc. but still)

I could go on and on...

For MTG, the cost of online cards is identical to the cost of IRL cards.  Cards don't cross over from IRL to online, and you can only buy randomized booster packs online, just like IRL.  So that might not be the best illustration of your point.

[michaeljb]

Well done. I can't give that enough likes!

Thank you!

I'm so glad Donald writes funny things that are fun to reference.

[Kirian]

Unless you meant lame and boring compared with the expanded game--as opposed to lame and boring compared to other games.

Dominion with the expansions is big and exciting, and base Dominion is lame and boring. Lame when compared to expanded Dominion, that is. It's moderate when compared to other games; other games that have won SdJ, anyway; it's exciting compared to those that haven't. But in a big expanded game like this one--big when compared to games with fewer expansions, small when compared to games with more expansions, if such things exist--it can be difficult for some people to remember the nice thing they had; nice compared to nothing at all, perhaps a little less nice than the expanded thing they have now--long story short (at least, of course, compared to longer stories), don't give people free pizza.

Pure Win.

[poggydude]

to the people who say the cost of magic cards is identical to irl cards, do you play magic?

there are certainly price discrepencies and nine times out of ten online cards are noticeably cheaper.  There are some fringe examples as well as some other weird things affecting the economy of magic online that make this comparison untenable(you can turn a full set of online cards into real cards for recent sets). 

[Rabid]

The secondary market for reselling single MTG online cards is at lower prices than RL.
This is due to a more efficient distribution, more competition and lower overheads online.
The MTG online retail price of sealed product in US $ (only availiable from the official website) is the same as the recommended retail price in stores.
But in stores you can get a bulk discount on sealed product.
So this creates a strange market where MTG online sealed boosters cost more, but contain less valuable single cards.

[cactus]

Remember:  That price is for seven games.  Not one, seven.  Ten bucks a game really isn't that terrible.

If you want to claim this, you have to remember that one of those games (base) is pretty lame and boring, and many of the others are completely unplayable taken alone.

It's ridiculous to complain about the pricing, I think, for the hardcore players.  Casuals... well, they might have a tougher time.

Yes - I think that is right. If I was logging as many games as some of the high end players I think the price would seem pretty insignificant. As it is i guess I've probably logged 200-300 games over a couple of years (couldn't find my exact stats for some reason) and with work and family commitments I'll probably have less rather than more chances to play over the next couple of years. Absolutely love the game and find the online (iso) experience more satisfying than playing IRL but (even though some of the other issues bug me more) price is  a bit of a sticking point for me.

[cactus]

Unless you meant lame and boring compared with the expanded game--as opposed to lame and boring compared to other games.

....long story short.... don't give people free pizza.

I've seen the argument being made a few times that goes something along the lines of "if only we hadn't made isotropic available to people in the first place people wouldn't be complaining now".

This argument just seems completely bogus to me. I mean how many of us would even been here on these forums if it wasn't for isotropic? My best friend and I own all the expansions to Dominion IRL but various circumstances, work, family etc. mean we can't get together to play very often. The only reason I got the chance to really get into Dominion was playing online on isotropic and not only do we own all the expansions between us but I've probably introduced 12-15 people to Dominion many of whom have bought physical copies themselves.... isotropic was free but it must have been good for the overall success and popularity of Dominion, right?

So isotropic was great but it did have its draw backs (not many). It was (is still?) not very pretty. Some of the people I introduced to the game would not play it on isotropic because of the interface. So this new online implementation was a big opportunity to take the game to more people, more casual players who may have been put off by isotropic (great though it was) but would have responded well to dominion presented in a prettier way (this is one reason it seems crazy that casual players are being priced out of the game IMO).

[yudantaiteki]

Casual players are much less likely to care about always playing with every expansion, so I don't agree they're being priced out of the game.  It's hard to be priced out of a game you can play for free.

[polonkus]

Casual players are much less likely to care about always playing with every expansion, so I don't agree they're being priced out of the game.  It's hard to be priced out of a game you can play for free.

That's such a stupid argument though.
This service will live or die on word of mouth, and it's only gonna really take off if it can convert casual players and get them to advertise to their friends.
I don't think anyone can argue that the base set is kinda terrible compared to the full game, so why do you want the people you should be impressing to have a worse impression than they need to?

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced the best way is a small per-game fee which goes to the winner, with Goko skimming a little off the top.
I think this would be fine legally as long as you can't convert your winnings back to real money.
Then you can offer people a small number of free games to get them hooked, you can offer free games for getting their friends to play (social monetization!)
It's even got something for the hardcore with the prospect of free play given a high enough win rate.

[yudantaiteki]

That's such a stupid argument though.

No, you're the poo-poo head!

[Tombolo]

Ehhh.  I think having to stop and think "do I really wanna spend a quarter for this" would kill a lot of the appeal of "oh man I have a few minutes time for DOMINION " for me.  This payment model is not my favorite ever but I still vastly prefer it to per-game or per-month, and haven't come up with a better alternative.

[polonkus]

Ehhh.  I think having to stop and think "do I really wanna spend a quarter for this" would kill a lot of the appeal of "oh man I have a few minutes time for DOMINION " for me.  This payment model is not my favorite ever but I still vastly prefer it to per-game or per-month, and haven't come up with a better alternative.

Well, you would probably pay in Gokoins or whatever, and buy a bucket equivalent to a bunch of games only occasionally.
Also under my proposed model it would only be $0.25 per game if you always lost, and with a 10% rake you would only need a win rate of 1.2 to break even.
Obviously these numbers would need to be tuned, but I think it has potential.

[Brando Commando]

....long story short.... don't give people free pizza.

I've seen the argument being made a few times that goes something along the lines of "if only we hadn't made isotropic available to people in the first place people wouldn't be complaining now".

This argument just seems completely bogus to me.

Agreed. At the very least, Doug demonstrated that there was a kind of demand for online play and attracted a lot of people to the server who now play Dominion online as a habit. I'm happy to be contradicted by some sort of numbers, but one suspects that Isotropic was, on the whole, a big net win for RGG; at the very least, I don't see how someone can dismiss this possibility.

Anyway, about the pricing arguments: Whatever a "just" price for the online service is, and whether Dominion is multiple games or really just one, I don't know. But it seems to me that casual players will just be confused and turned off by the prospect of buying several parts of a game that hardcore players have the entirety of. (And, as pointed out elsewhere, the $85 price tag, just or not, will inevitably invite unfavorable comparisons to other games that cost $85.)

The problem is partly that Goko needs to win over a lot of people to make Dominion online viable; the whole reason people go to isotropic is because finding games is ridiculously easy. Because of this, I think up or down trends for Goko will be self-reinforcing, and thus pretty bad if it isn't able to grab a lot of people quickly.

And as of right now, with this pricing structure, I think many of us are pessimistic about that.

[Jfrisch]

Ehhh.  I think having to stop and think "do I really wanna spend a quarter for this" would kill a lot of the appeal of "oh man I have a few minutes time for DOMINION " for me.  This payment model is not my favorite ever but I still vastly prefer it to per-game or per-month, and haven't come up with a better alternative.

Well, you would probably pay in Gokoins or whatever, and buy a bucket equivalent to a bunch of games only occasionally.
Also under my proposed model it would only be $0.25 per game if you always lost, and with a 10% rake you would only need a win rate of 1.2 to break even.
Obviously these numbers would need to be tuned, but I think it has potential.

But that's not all... beyond the amazing bonuses of having to deal with online gambling
you get
A community that goes to hell because, hey, money is on the line.
A strong incentive to play weaker players because hey then you're earning money rather than losing it.
A beginner unfriendly scenario where people (relatively) new to the game hemorrhage money.
and much much more... All for the low, low price of 25 cents a game!

[polonkus]

Ehhh.  I think having to stop and think "do I really wanna spend a quarter for this" would kill a lot of the appeal of "oh man I have a few minutes time for DOMINION " for me.  This payment model is not my favorite ever but I still vastly prefer it to per-game or per-month, and haven't come up with a better alternative.

Well, you would probably pay in Gokoins or whatever, and buy a bucket equivalent to a bunch of games only occasionally.
Also under my proposed model it would only be $0.25 per game if you always lost, and with a 10% rake you would only need a win rate of 1.2 to break even.
Obviously these numbers would need to be tuned, but I think it has potential.

But that's not all... beyond the amazing bonuses of having to deal with online gambling
you get

A community that goes to hell because, hey, money is on the line.

[citation needed] Remember you can't convert your winnings back to real money.
You also get added excitement of having some "tangible" reward for winning.

A strong incentive to play weaker players because hey then you're earning money rather than losing it.

That seems like a good thing to me.. promote healthy competition rather than an elite which only play among themselves.

A beginner unfriendly scenario where people (relatively) new to the game hemorrhage money.

So you offer beginners a one-time Gokoin bundle purchase at a very discounted rate.
Besides if they play other beginners it should average out.

and much much more... All for the low, low price of 25 cents a game!

As I said, the actual price is only 2.5 cents/game for a player with a 1.0 win rate.
And all the numbers can be tuned.

[Grujah]

To make it more engaging for casuals - newcomers, they should to LoL - scheme: you got some mini expansions for free each week, and it changes.

[Slow Dog]

one suspects that Isotropic was, on the whole, a big net win for RGG; at the very least, I don't see how someone can dismiss this possibility.

There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who then went on to buy the real game. That's a possible win for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were satisfied with the the online version and thus had no need buy the real game (or some particular expansion) they otherwise would have. That's a possible loss for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were enjoyed the the online version of a particular expansion and thus went on to buy the real expansion they otherwise wouldn't have. That's a possible gain for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were dissatisfied with the the online version of a particular expansion and thus no longer wanted buy the real expansion they otherwise would have. That's a possible loss for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who wouldn't have spent any money whatever the circumstances. These people will be sad, but are no loss (financially) to RGG.

Any other cases? Any evidence for overall gain or loss (I shouldn't think so).

Incidentally, I'm here without ever playing the game electronically in any form. I don't know "how many of us" there are.

[blueblimp]

one suspects that Isotropic was, on the whole, a big net win for RGG; at the very least, I don't see how someone can dismiss this possibility.

There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who then went on to buy the real game. That's a possible win for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were satisfied with the the online version and thus had no need buy the real game (or some particular expansion) they otherwise would have. That's a possible loss for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were enjoyed the the online version of a particular expansion and thus went on to buy the real expansion they otherwise wouldn't have. That's a possible gain for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were dissatisfied with the the online version of a particular expansion and thus no longer wanted buy the real expansion they otherwise would have. That's a possible loss for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who wouldn't have spent any money whatever the circumstances. These people will be sad, but are no loss (financially) to RGG.

Any other cases? Any evidence for overall gain or loss (I shouldn't think so).

Incidentally, I'm here without ever playing the game electronically in any form. I don't know "how many of us" there are.

Eh, I don't really think there are many people who discovered Dominion through isotropic that would have discovered it otherwise. If there's any loss to RGG, I think it'd be people who played Dominion IRL first, discovered isotropic, and then became too good at the game to enjoy playing it with their friends IRL anymore. I'm not sure I even believe that though (since I'm decently rated on isotropic and still enjoy playing with friends IRL).

[michaeljb]

So when I wrote in the pizza line, it was late at night and the important part of that post was literally everything before that point; at the end, I didn't have much clever to end it with, so I went with something I remembered Donald saying, and had been brought up a couple times.

Heck, in the Hinterlands blurb, the fun part isn't "it is time to stretch your borders," it's that hilarious stuff before that.

Anyway after I had gone to bed and was trying to get to sleep I came up with a more appropriate ending that will hopefully appease anyone freaking out at my use of Donald's free pizza quip.

long story short (at least, of course, compared to longer stories), don't give people free pizza if people like the cheese pizza you sell them, then you sell them a variety of exciting toppings, they won't be thrilled at the thought of going back to that cheese pizza, even if it's free.

[polonkus]

one suspects that Isotropic was, on the whole, a big net win for RGG; at the very least, I don't see how someone can dismiss this possibility.

There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who then went on to buy the real game. That's a possible win for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were satisfied with the the online version and thus had no need buy the real game (or some particular expansion) they otherwise would have. That's a possible loss for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were enjoyed the the online version of a particular expansion and thus went on to buy the real expansion they otherwise wouldn't have. That's a possible gain for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who were dissatisfied with the the online version of a particular expansion and thus no longer wanted buy the real expansion they otherwise would have. That's a possible loss for RGG.
There will be people who played dominion on Isotropic who wouldn't have spent any money whatever the circumstances. These people will be sad, but are no loss (financially) to RGG.

Any other cases? Any evidence for overall gain or loss (I shouldn't think so).

Incidentally, I'm here without ever playing the game electronically in any form. I don't know "how many of us" there are.

Eh, I don't really think there are many people who discovered Dominion through isotropic that would have discovered it otherwise. If there's any loss to RGG, I think it'd be people who played Dominion IRL first, discovered isotropic, and then became too good at the game to enjoy playing it with their friends IRL anymore. I'm not sure I even believe that though (since I'm decently rated on isotropic and still enjoy playing with friends IRL).

Anecdotes FTW: I was introduced to Base by a friend who bought it in Germany when it had just won the SdJ.
Played it a couple times, liked it, was a staple in our group for a few months, moved on. Few years later, friend got me hooked on isotropic.
Since then I've played several thousand games, have hooked 3-4 friends (who hadn't played it before) to varying degrees.
Know of at least 3 physical sets which have been purchased as an indirect result.

[Cave-o-sapien]

I wonder how much, if any, of Goko's market research was done based on Isotropic stats.

[Tombolo]

To make it more engaging for casuals - newcomers, they should to LoL - scheme: you got some mini expansions for free each week, and it changes.

Actually this is a phenomenal idea.  It gives casual players a chance to test things out and get used to them and form opinions, and it gives the hardcore players a bit better experience without having to shell out 80 bucks.

I'd also be pretty cool with implementing their RP/IP system where you CAN just grind forever if you really want gameplay elements for free and can resist the shiny little "don't you want them now for a few bucks" button.  I'm guessing that's a pipe dream, though.

Well, you would probably pay in Gokoins or whatever, and buy a bucket equivalent to a bunch of games only occasionally.
Also under my proposed model it would only be $0.25 per game if you always lost, and with a 10% rake you would only need a win rate of 1.2 to break even.
Obviously these numbers would need to be tuned, but I think it has potential.

This just...doesn't sound fun to me personally.  Regardless of when I pay, what form of currency I pay, and even how much I pay, it's a psychological barrier knowing that I have paid money to play this specific game of Dominion, and I had BETTER ENJOY IT OR I WILL HAVE WASTED THAT PENNY/QUARTER/DONALD X. FUNBUCK.  Not to mention it increases the pressure to win, which I don't particularly enjoy.  The goodies when I win I don't think would balance out the frustration when I don't.  That and I foresee a wave of unsavory play from people focused more on getting more coins than actually having fun.  I can't pretend I'd have TOO strong an objection to becoming WW's personal whipping boy and coin farm, but given how much shenanigans there are on isotropic with the sole motivation of a leaderboard, I am kinda scared that it would turn the server into a hive of cheaters and people who only play one board ever.  Maybe those problems wouldn't actually happen, and maybe other people don't share my qualms...but even if it would save me money, your idea stresses me out just to think about it.

[Beyond Awesome]

To make it more engaging for casuals - newcomers, they should to LoL - scheme: you got some mini expansions for free each week, and it changes.

Actually this is a phenomenal idea.  It gives casual players a chance to test things out and get used to them and form opinions, and it gives the hardcore players a bit better experience without having to shell out 80 bucks.

I'd also be pretty cool with implementing their RP/IP system where you CAN just grind forever if you really want gameplay elements for free and can resist the shiny little "don't you want them now for a few bucks" button.  I'm guessing that's a pipe dream, though.

Well, you would probably pay in Gokoins or whatever, and buy a bucket equivalent to a bunch of games only occasionally.
Also under my proposed model it would only be $0.25 per game if you always lost, and with a 10% rake you would only need a win rate of 1.2 to break even.
Obviously these numbers would need to be tuned, but I think it has potential.

This just...doesn't sound fun to me personally.  Regardless of when I pay, what form of currency I pay, and even how much I pay, it's a psychological barrier knowing that I have paid money to play this specific game of Dominion, and I had BETTER ENJOY IT OR I WILL HAVE WASTED THAT PENNY/QUARTER/DONALD X. FUNBUCK.  Not to mention it increases the pressure to win, which I don't particularly enjoy.  The goodies when I win I don't think would balance out the frustration when I don't.  That and I foresee a wave of unsavory play from people focused more on getting more coins than actually having fun.  I can't pretend I'd have TOO strong an objection to becoming WW's personal whipping boy and coin farm, but given how much shenanigans there are on isotropic with the sole motivation of a leaderboard, I am kinda scared that it would turn the server into a hive of cheaters and people who only play one board ever.  Maybe those problems wouldn't actually happen, and maybe other people don't share my qualms...but even if it would save me money, your idea stresses me out just to think about it.

I agree. I think a better alternative would be a tournament once every month or two where the winner gets some gokoins or whatever.