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Author Topic: forager vs. mystic  (Read 4026 times)

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engineer

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forager vs. mystic
« on: August 17, 2012, 01:55:14 pm »
+1

Check out these two cards:

Forager
$3
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Trash a card from your hand. +$1 per differently named Treasure in the trash.
Action

Mystic
$5
+1 Action
+$2
Name a card. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it’s the named card, put it into your hand.
Action

If you don't have any deck spying, then the mystic usually won't be drawing a card, so it's usually just +1 action, +$2 for a $5 cost.  As long as somebody has trashed a copper, the forager is at least +1 action, +$1, +1 buy for only $3.  If anybody has trashed a better treasure, then the forager will be +1 action, +$2, +1 buy.

From a theorycraft point of view, shouldn't forager be way better than mystic on average?  Why is the forager $2 less?  Also, considering some other $3 terminal silvers (such as chancellor), why does forager have the +1 action?

Post your thoughts.
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jonts26

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 02:01:22 pm »
+4

The issue with forager is the forced trash. Just like trade route, you run out of targets unless you have another source of +buy outside of the card itself. Actually, forager is probably somewhat comparable to trade route in a lot of ways.
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engineer

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 02:03:17 pm »
0

Ah.  You're right, I did sort of miss that important detail.
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blueblimp

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 02:03:26 pm »
0

The issue with forager is the forced trash. Just like trade route, you run out of targets unless you have another source of +buy outside of the card itself. Actually, forager is probably somewhat comparable to trade route in a lot of ways.
Yeah, Forager is like a non-terminal Trade Route, so it should be decently strong (since Trade Route is sorta okay sometimes even though it's terminal).
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Grujah

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 02:04:28 pm »
0

The issue with forager is the forced trash. Just like trade route, you run out of targets unless you have another source of +buy outside of the card itself. Actually, forager is probably somewhat comparable to trade route in a lot of ways.

Except +1 Action, it's a lot similar to Trade Route.

Mystic is basically +1Action, +2$ +0.5 Card (every second mystic in a row is guaranteed to draw). It's comparable to Bazaar.
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gman314

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 02:05:48 pm »
0

Remember, if the card isn't right, you put it back on top. So, just stock up on Mystics. At the very least, every other Mystic will draw another card. If you guess correctly, then your rate increases. And, by buying lots of Mystics, you can make your guesses more correct by just guessing Mystic. Then, you get a bit of trashing and you have an all-Mystic deck. Add a couple of +Buy cards and you have an engine which is a lot like a Minion deck except without the attack, but with slightly more consistent card drawing. It fits quite nicely at $5.

Forager is comparable to a non-terminal Trade Route. It probably won't be worth all that much.
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rinkworks

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 02:10:08 pm »
+2

If you don't have any deck spying, then the mystic usually won't be drawing a card, so it's usually just +1 action, +$2 for a $5 cost.  As long as somebody has trashed a copper, the forager is at least +1 action, +$1, +1 buy for only $3.  If anybody has trashed a better treasure, then the forager will be +1 action, +$2, +1 buy.

From a theorycraft point of view, shouldn't forager be way better than mystic on average?

Not at all.  First, you say Forager is at least +1 Action, +1 Buy, +$1 "for only" $3, but this is a terrible $3 effect.  It's essentially Copper-as-Action that gives you +1 Buy.  It would be a poor card even at $2, though you might pick it up at that price occasionally.  And you'd buy it at $3 or even $4 if there were no other source of +Buy, but you'd have to be truly hard up for +Buy if you'd prefer this over Silver.

And a Silver is basically what Mystic's minimum effect is:  a non-terminal but non-drawing source of +$2.

Now let's consider what these cards look like on the upside.  At best, Mystic is an activated Conspirator.  This is about a $7 effect for $5.  (Why $7?  For a few different reasons, the best one being that this was the initial draft of Grand Market:  no +Buy, no Copper restriction, and a $7 price tag.  Similarly, you can argue that Peddler is balanced at $4, so the same card with an extra coin on top of it should cost $3 more, given the price differences between the base Treasure cards.)

Forager can become better than this, but it takes a lot of work, trashing valuable cards like Gold.  It's better with weak kingdom Treasures (Loan) or self-trashing ones (Horn of Plenty) or ones that trash other ones (Counterfeit), but outside of these combos you probably don't build it up beyond "Silver-as-Action-with-a-Buy."  Occasionally something will trash a Gold, so then it's Gold-as-Action-with-a-Buy, which is pretty good -- about a $7 effect!  Which is what Mystic can be more often and right off the bat instead of only by the later stages of the game.

Admittedly, a lot depends on how often you can activate Mystic.  In heavy DA/Cornucopia kingdoms, this will be less often than otherwise.  But I believe (without having played with it yet) that it will be easier to activate this than Wishing Well, just because it will work with a lot of top-decking combos that Wishing Well does NOT work with, such as Spy.  It also self-combos (one failed Mystic causes the next to succeed) whereas Wishing Well does not.

So I definitely see Mystic as the stronger card on average.  That said, Forager has the better upside in certain kingdoms, similarly to how Trade Route can dominate in kingdoms with lots of Victory cards.  Even then, though, it'll definitely be tougher to build Forager up than Trade Route, because buying Victory cards to activate Trade Route is stuff you eventually want to do anyway, while trashing Treasures to activate Forager is more often a penalty.
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engineer

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 02:16:31 pm »
0

Remember, if the card isn't right, you put it back on top. So, just stock up on Mystics. At the very least, every other Mystic will draw another card. If you guess correctly, then your rate increases. And, by buying lots of Mystics, you can make your guesses more correct by just guessing Mystic. Then, you get a bit of trashing and you have an all-Mystic deck. Add a couple of +Buy cards and you have an engine which is a lot like a Minion deck except without the attack, but with slightly more consistent card drawing. It fits quite nicely at $5.

Eh, I'm not sure about this.  If you guess right, the mystic only becomes a cantrip, not a lab.  I mean, I see what you're saying about slimming a deck down to pure mystics, but I think it will be hard to get there, because until you do, the mystics you already have will basically just be silvers.  Granted, they aren't terminal silvers, so that is a plus.

I can see how the mystic will be better than I thought, but we'll have to wait and see if it really is a card you can build a deck around.
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Scissors61

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 04:08:55 pm »
0

What treasures will you find in the trash, typically?
Horn of Plenty
Copper
What treasures trash others?
Loan
Counterfeit
Gold and Silver will rarely be in the trash, except in the endgame when you're Remodling them into Duchies and Provinces. So, early game, if you are not actively trashing your treasures, worth $1 or $2. Midgame, about $3. Endgame, however, will make it more than a Gold. But this is assuming that there are kingdom treasures and/or Remodel.
Mystic is a non-terminal Silver Wishing Well. As such it is very reliant on combos. Spies or Scrying Pools are the simple, obvious choice. But Scavenger could top-deck a powerful card and reshuffle to boot. But there is no making sure they are there in a random game.
So basically, this was a long-winded way to say; depends on the kingdom.
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eHalcyon

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 04:15:47 pm »
+2

I think Mystic is most comparable to the $5 Silver class of cards -- Royal Seal, Venture, IGG.  They are all basically Silver with a benefit.  Venture gives cycling and has potential to be worth more than Silver.  IGG is actually kind of a penalty (have to gain a Copper) but the on-buy is the big thing.

Mystic is an Action, but +1 Action makes it very much like a Treasure.  The chance at drawing is a very nice benefit, especially since Mystics will stack with each other.
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Insomniac

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 04:19:08 pm »
0

You COULD play 8 mystics and a market square to buy 2 provinces a turn.

With no provinces can't miss.

With 2 provinces
5 Mystics --> 3 non mystics in deck = can't miss
4 Mystics 1Non mystic 2 non mystics in deck = can't miss
3 Mystics 2 non mystics, 1 non mystic in deck can't miss.

With 4 Provinces, you can miss but its low probability and probably if you get even one province its game over. But of course all this implies you have a good economy to be able to get all those things together. and a small deck.
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Loschmidt

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 08:30:49 pm »
+1

Eh, I'm not sure about this.  If you guess right, the mystic only becomes a cantrip, not a lab.  I mean, I see what you're saying about slimming a deck down to pure mystics, but I think it will be hard to get there, because until you do, the mystics you already have will basically just be silvers.  Granted, they aren't terminal silvers, so that is a plus.

I can see how the mystic will be better than I thought, but we'll have to wait and see if it really is a card you can build a deck around.

It becomes a cantrip yes, but it gives +$2. That's like a lab that only draws silver.

I'm almost hesitant to say this, but this combos with Scout. Like for real. You guys seems to have forgotten about all of the deck inspection cards that can help to make this work. Rather than building a deck that is 50% Mystics you can throw in a few Spys to help out. Spy/Mystic should actually work in the way that you wished Spy/Wishing Well did.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 08:33:02 pm by Loschmidt »
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eHalcyon

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Re: forager vs. mystic
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 09:26:18 pm »
+1

Eh, I'm not sure about this.  If you guess right, the mystic only becomes a cantrip, not a lab.  I mean, I see what you're saying about slimming a deck down to pure mystics, but I think it will be hard to get there, because until you do, the mystics you already have will basically just be silvers.  Granted, they aren't terminal silvers, so that is a plus.

I can see how the mystic will be better than I thought, but we'll have to wait and see if it really is a card you can build a deck around.

It becomes a cantrip yes, but it gives +$2. That's like a lab that only draws silver.

I'm almost hesitant to say this, but this combos with Scout. Like for real. You guys seems to have forgotten about all of the deck inspection cards that can help to make this work. Rather than building a deck that is 50% Mystics you can throw in a few Spys to help out. Spy/Mystic should actually work in the way that you wished Spy/Wishing Well did.

Haven't forgotten.  I mentioned it in my First Impressions post. :P

Mystic: Looks like an Action-typed Silver-with-benefit.  It's nice that it stacks with itself and also combos with Spy-type cards.  I think it will be decently strong.
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