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[blueblimp]

I just joined the forum for replying this thread.

I was with blueblimp most in the interpretation of Band of Misfits card. Then michaeljb shed a new light and the whole interpretation got refined.

As michaeljb has said, Throne Room calls for "Choose an action card in hand. Play it twice." What TR sees in the case of TR-BoM is, the player chooses BoM in hand. BoM only morphs WHEN it is played. But when TR chooses BoM, it has not yet been played. So TR has to address the BoM card as a plain BoM card when the player "play it twice". TR does NOT know what the BoM card is morphing into. (Band of Misfits says "Play this as if it were an Action card", Not "Treat it as if".)

Therefore, for normal cases such as TR-BoM-Smithy, the only thing that makes BoM remains a Smithy is its instruction to keep the morph "until it leaves play", and nothing else. The flow is
1) TR card plays BoM card twice;
2) BoM card first plays as if a Smithy card;
3) The BoM card *is still* a Smithy card because it has not left play;
4) Without choice, BoM card plays as if a Smithy card again.

However, for the case of TR-BoM-Feast, the following happens:
1) A TR card tells the player to choose an action card on hand; play it twice.
1.1) Player chooses a BoM card.
1.2) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the first time.
1.2.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.2.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Feast.
1.2.1.1.1) BoM-as-Feast tells the player to trash it; gain a <=$5 card.
1.2.1.1.1.1) Player trashes BoM-as-Feast.
1.2.1.1.1.1.1) BoM is entering Trash.
1.2.1.1.1.1.2) BoM-as-Feast leaves play; magic fades.
1.2.1.1.1.2) Player gains a <=$5 card.
1.3) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the second time.
1.3.0.1) BoM card cannot *move* to in play, as cards don't MOVE out of the trash; they GAIN from the trash. (ref: Graverobber)
1.3.0.2) The BoM card is a vanilla BoM card in Trash.
1.3.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.3.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Fortress.
1.3.1.1.1) BoM-as-Fortress tells the players to +1card, +2actions.
1.3.1.1.1.1) Player +1card, +2actions.
In clear-up phrase:
2) TR is in play; it is discarded.
3) BoM-as-Fortress is not in play; it is not *discarded*.
4.0.1) BoM-as-Fortress has never been *trashed*; it is already in Trash before it is a Fortress.
4.0.2) "When you trash this" doesn't apply.
4.0.3) It does not tell the player to put it into hand.
4) BoM-as-Fortress stays in Trash.

While this makes sense, it is not what the rules say, and I don't see why you posted it. The thread isn't really about telling us what the rules are, we can now look them up. The thread is about producing a mental model that explains the rules as they are printed.

I don't see that the printed rules address TR BoM-as-Feast either way.

Edit: Well I guess this is pretty close:

If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is still copying the same card.

although it is explained by the example of Procession-Fortress, which doesn't have the self-trashing complication.

[billyswong]

As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

This is incorrect. Cards can lose track of themselves.

Example?

[michaeljb]

As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

This is incorrect. Cards can lose track of themselves.

Example?

Mining Village, when played with Throne Room.

The first time, Mining Village can trash itself for +$2; the second time it's played if you choose to trash it, it expects to find itself in play but doesn't, so it fails to move itself to the trash, so in the end you can only get the +$2 once.

edit: And now I see that's the example you were responding to. hrmm...I still say in that situation Mining Village has lost track of itself. Throne Room sure isn't the card that's trying and failing to move it to the trash both times.

[Beyond Awesome]

I think BoM should have had this wording instead: When this in play, if you choose, it counts as any action card costing less than it. As it reads, "when you play this," Implies that when you play it as an action you get a choice to play it as one action.

So, I see the TR argument. You are playing BoM twice and each time you play it, BoM becomes an action of your choice.

I know Donald X.'s ruling, but it doesn't really make much sense in my opinion after giving much thought about this.

[RiemannZetaJones]

As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

This is incorrect. Cards can lose track of themselves.

Example?

We don't need an example, it follows from a literal reading of the lose-track rule in the Dark Ages rulebook.

[Jeebus]

Okay, I'm also late to this. I found this thread after thinking about this very problem when reading a different thread on BGG. Here is my summary of the whole thing.

[EDIT: Since there were numerous errors here, I just deleted the whole thing. Nobody had responded to anything in it directly anyway. Relevant points is instead made in my next post.]

[RiemannZetaJones]

Donald X. [and apparently the two reference implementations (isotropic and Goko)] says that Throne Room (and KC and Procession) applied to BoM-as-Feast plays the Feast twice (or three times) without offering a choice.

Unless Donald X. reverses himself, this is the rule.

The BoM in the trash is just a BoM, so we are lead to conclude that Throne Room determines once what the card to played twice is, then carries out the instructions on that card twice. I don't see that any other explanation of the rule as we currently have it makes sense.

[Synthesizer]

Hi,
I just joined the forum specifically to post this
I have been lurking for a while now, and never had anything worthwile to add, but I think I actually have a suggestion that will resolve a lot of (maybe even all?) TR debates. Here goes nothing:
"Choose an action card in your hand. Put it into play, then execute its action twice."

(or thrice, in case of KC; that would also need a "you may" clause in the obvious place)

("resolve" instead of "execute"?) (definitely not "play", because one might confuse that for "I can't do this because I don't have  another copy of the chosen card in hand")

I figure with this wording, any issue would be resolved:
- BOM can't be put into play without converting it into "whatever".
- Feast gets trashed, you gain a card, you can't execute the trashing bit, then you gain a card
- Treasure map gets trashed with a copy in hand, you qualify for the golds, then you must trash a copy in your hand if you have one, but this time you don't qualify for the golds.
- TR or KC just gets executed twice/thrice
- Mining Village gives you +2 action, + 1 card, then you may trash it immediately, if you do, you qualify for getting +2$, then it gives you another +2actions +1 card; now you may trash it immediately, but if you did on the previous run through, you can't because you did so already, so you can't qualify for +2$.

Anybody looking for a mental model, I guess this would be it. I think this would only leave the behavior with durations up to the rulebook.

This thread was a fun read!

[Stealth Tomato]

So:
The instructions on BoM are actually resolved before playing the card: True, that is reasonable.
"Play it twice" does not mean "play it, then play it again": Untrue, it must mean that.
Because the last one is untrue, I can't support the official interpretation. I also think the most intuitive way to play it would be to choose the action card again after trashing Feast with Throne Room.

How about a different interpretation: Throne Room, upon entering play, becomes an imprint of the card chosen with it, whose instructions are then followed twice. If Throne Room would be trashed due to the imprinted effect, trash the imprinter instead. This is essentially an errata on Throne Room, but I think it works.

e.g.

I play a Throne Room on a Wharf. Wharf itself is essentially a token attached to Throne Room. Throne Room causes me to draw 4 cards and get +2 Buys, stays in play after cleanup, then does the same on my next turn.

I play Throne Room on a BoM. Throne Room becomes BoM. I choose Embargo. Throne Room becomes Embargo. The "trash this" effect trashes the imprinter (BoM) and the remainder of Embargo resolves. Throne Room has not left play, so it's still an Embargo. I can't re-trash the imprinter (just like if I'd Throned an Embargo directly), but the effect still resolves.

[Insomniac]

It's easy to see the way the FAQ has it.

Throne Room says pick a card in your hand play it twice. Ok so I pick band of misfits. I play it, I'll play it as a fortress. This is a fortress till it leaves play ok.
Play it again...well it never left the play area so it MUST still be a fortress. Nothing on throne room or kings court contradict this part of the card, BoM simply doesn't leave play.

[AJD]

It's easy to see the way the FAQ has it.

Throne Room says pick a card in your hand play it twice. Ok so I pick band of misfits. I play it, I'll play it as a fortress. This is a fortress till it leaves play ok.
Play it again...well it never left the play area so it MUST still be a fortress. Nothing on throne room or kings court contradict this part of the card, BoM simply doesn't leave play.

What's causing confusion is the case of cards that do leave the play area when they get played, such as Feast.

[Insomniac]

It's easy to see the way the FAQ has it.

Throne Room says pick a card in your hand play it twice. Ok so I pick band of misfits. I play it, I'll play it as a fortress. This is a fortress till it leaves play ok.
Play it again...well it never left the play area so it MUST still be a fortress. Nothing on throne room or kings court contradict this part of the card, BoM simply doesn't leave play.

What's causing confusion is the case of cards that do leave the play area when they get played, such as Feast.

On that note its not in play anymore, it can't change it's text.

[shMerker]

Uh...can't it? I mean, it trashed itself, so it didn't lose track. Meanwhile it has text that explicitly says what happens when it leaves play. If there's a rule that says something can't happen to a card while it's not in play wouldn't that mean that text is never invoked?

[AJD]

When Band of Misfits (acting as Feast) is trashed, the card reverts back to being Band of Misfits, as per the card text.

If you Throne Room a Band of Misfits (acting as Feast), you get two Feast effects, not one Feast effect and then a second effect where Band of Misfits chooses to be something else; we know this because Donald Said So.

After that, the only discussion about BoM/TR/Feast has been trying to figure out the best way to understand the structure of the rules in order to make the two above sentences consistent.

[Insomniac]

When Band of Misfits (acting as Feast) is trashed, the card reverts back to being Band of Misfits, as per the card text.

If you Throne Room a Band of Misfits (acting as Feast), you get two Feast effects, not one Feast effect and then a second effect where Band of Misfits chooses to be something else; we know this because Donald Said So.

After that, the only discussion about BoM/TR/Feast has been trying to figure out the best way to understand the structure of the rules in order to make the two above sentences consistent.

What if Throne/KC/Procession on a feast doesn't make feast leave play until after the last resolution (and only if it was trashed)

[AJD]

What if Throne/KC/Procession on a feast doesn't make feast leave play until after the last resolution (and only if it was trashed)

This is known to be false.

[Schneau]

My major issue in all this discussion is the Rule Book's interpretation of Procession playing Bom-as-Fortress. From the rules:

If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is still copying the same card. For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress).

So, let's assume that it is correct that BoM-as-Fortress is a Fortress and therefore should be returned to your hand when you trash it. Based on the interpretation of Throne Room + BoM-as-Feast, Throne Room (and by proxy Procession) remember what card was played by BoM, which is why Throne Room + BoM-as-Feast can play Feast twice even though BoM is in the trash the second play. Now we get to Procession:

Procession
$4 - Action
You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Trash it. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Here, the "it" in both "Trash it." and "Gain an Action card costing exactly 1 more than it." refer to BoM-as-Fortress. So, if Throne Room can remember that BoM-as-Feast is a Feast even when it is in the trash, why does Procession suddenly think that BoM-as-Fortress is a BoM? Shouldn't it think it's a Fortress? More importantly, BoM can't be "played" in the normal sense - it must be played "as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it." So, I would make the case that you would gain a card costing $5, not $6 as is stated in the rules.


(As a related aside, what would happen if you play BoM in a game without an Action cards cheaper than it in the Kingdom? Are you even allowed to play it (say, to buy a cheaper Peddler)?)

[Jeebus]

Here, the "it" in both "Trash it." and "Gain an Action card costing exactly 1 more than it." refer to BoM-as-Fortress. So, if Throne Room can remember that BoM-as-Feast is a Feast even when it is in the trash, why does Procession suddenly think that BoM-as-Fortress is a BoM? Shouldn't it think it's a Fortress?

Good question; it has been talked about. It's correct that Procession thinks it's a BoM, because "it" just refers to the-card-you-chose-whatever-it-is-now, and "Gain an Action card costing exactly 1 more than it" is a new instruction that happens after the card is trashed and thus a BoM.

As I reasoned, one should think Throne Room would act in the same way. The only way Throne Room would "remember" that the card is a Feast the second time must be if the second instruction to play the card does not come after the card is trashed, but rather is triggered before, at the same time as the first instruction to play the card. I'm talking about the card text "play it twice." This then cannot mean "play it, then play it again."

And thinking about this (even) further, I realize that I was wrong in my reasoning! New post will follow.

More importantly, BoM can't be "played" in the normal sense - it must be played "as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it." So, I would make the case that you would gain a card costing $5, not $6 as is stated in the rules.

Even thought a BoM was never played, the card that was played ("it") is now a BoM.

(As a related aside, what would happen if you play BoM in a game without an Action cards cheaper than it in the Kingdom? Are you even allowed to play it (say, to buy a cheaper Peddler)?)

You are always allowed to play an action card (provided you have a remaining action). Then you do as much as you can. Basic rules.

[Jeebus]

Okay, to try to make this less cluttered and easier to follow, i just deleted my previous post. Every point is here instead.

First of all, we absolutely need a new rule that has never been stated anywhere before:

Rule: All instructions on a card must be followed once it is played.

Without this rule BoM-as-Feast would not gain a card, and BoM-as-Embargo would not place a token. When the card would be trashed, it would revert back to BoM (no matter how you interpret BoM) before we could get to the second instruction on Feast or Embargo.

Then there is the question of Throne Room + BoM, choosing Feast. The official interpretation is that the second time Throne Room plays BoM it would still play it as Feast, even though the Feast you trashed is now a BoM.

***
First there is the question of whether the instructions on BoM are played as with every other action cards, or they are resolved - uniquely - before actually playing the card.

If BoM is played like any other action card, we need to do the instructions on the card after playing it. It enters the play area as a BoM. There are two instructions. The first is to play it as if it were another Action card. This would almost seem to mean that this card, just as Throne Room and Golem, makes us play another card, thereby racking up two played actions (for a Conspirator tally). It does say "play this as if it were an Action card...", not "play an Action card...", but even if the card played itself, that would still be the next thing that happened after we already played it. So the wording doesn't actually support playing it as a normal action card, without getting clearly unwanted and non-intuitive consequences.

The second instruction is, as I see it, setting up an ability to happen later. That ability happens when the card leaves play: It then reverts to being BoM. It doesn't matter whether we resolve this instruction before playing the card or after playing it, it still sets this up to happen at that time. But if the first instruction is done before playing the card, it would be very weird not to do both of them then.

To my mind it's not desirable that an Action card should be unique in having instructions that must be followed before playing it, rather than after. But it actually is the most intuitive way to resolve the card, given the way it's worded.

In any case, even if BoM's card text is a before-play ability, it won't trigger until BoM is actually played. Then, right before the card is played, the ability is triggered. Simply choosing the card (with Throne Room for instance) won't trigger a before-play ability.

***
In my previous post I postulated that it was important whether or not Throne Room's "play it twice" means "play it, then play it again". Even though the Throne Room FAQ says so, we know that the exact wording in FAQs is not to be trusted, FAQs are just meant to explain the card in an immediate way.

I compared "play it twice" with "gain two coppers" (Cache), which I still think is a good comparison. I said "gain two Coppers" means "gain a Copper, then gain another Copper". The reason I thought so was that "gain a Curse and Copper" (Mountebank) means "gain a Curse, then gain a Copper". There are also other examples of "A and B" meaning "A, then B" (Followers for instance). But Donald has actually not stated this about "gain two Coppers". Here are the relevant links.

About Mountebank: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6893644#6893644
About Cache: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082

The two abilites are actually not the same. "Gain a Curse and a Copper" means "gain a Curse, then gain a Copper." Two consecutive effects. But "gain two Coppers" means "gain two Coppers simultaneously". Two simultaneous effects. If "gain a Curse and a Copper" were two simultaneous effects, the player gaining them would get to choose the order in which they are resolved. He could gain the Copper first, or the Curse. According to Donald he can't; he gains the Curse first. But Donald does state that the Coppers from Cache are simultaneous, so the player gaining them decides the order (which doesn't matter).

So according to this rule for "gain two X", it would follow that "do X twice" behaves in the same way. Thus "play it twice" actually triggers two effects simultaneously. Both are "play it", i.e. "play the chosen card". We then have to choose the order in which we will resolve them, but it doesn't matter since they're the same. In my previous post I said that "gain two X" or "do X twice" has to entail two consecutive instructions, but that was wrong. They can be triggered simultaneously, they just need to be resolved consecutively.

But I don't actually think that this matters for the current problem! In my previous post I said that if both effects are triggered before we resolve them, then that would mean Throne Room "loads" the chosen card's instructions first, to use both times. First of all, not just the instructions but of course all the stats (name, type, cost) would have to be "loaded". But I think this is false anyway. Instructions (not anything else) are "loaded" when a card is played (in order to fulfull the rule that all instructions on a card must be followed once it is played). But the card isn't played when the effect to play it is triggered; it's played when that effect is resolved. The effects that are triggered are just "play the chosen card" and it doesn't even matter what the card is then, just that it's the card we chose. We order the effects, then resolve them consecutively. When we resolve the first effect, we play the card and it's a BoM. At that point BoM's before-play ability is triggered and it becomes Feast, and is then played normally as Feast. If we trash the Feast, it reverts to a BoM. When we resolve the second effect, we play the card and it's a BoM.

***
A note regarding "it": Throne Room says play it twice. This is the card you chose from your hand. It doesn't matter what it is the second time (name/type/text/cost). it will be played as what it is - just as Procession's ability "gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it" doesn't care whether it actually has the same name/type/text/cost, it looks at what the cost is now.

***
So it must go like this:
1. You play Throne Room. (Being played, Throne Room's instructions are loaded.)
2. Resolving Throne Room's first instruction, you choose BoM in your hand.
3. Throne Room's second instruction triggers two effects: play the card and play the card.
4. Resolving the first of Throne Room's triggered effects, you play BoM.
5. Resolving BoM's instructions (before you play it), you choose Feast, and also set up that it will revert to being BoM when leaving play.
6. Now you actually play Feast (being played, Feast's instructions are loaded.)
7. Resolving Feast's first instruction, you trash it.
8. When Feast is trashed, it reverts to being BoM.
9. Resolving Feast's second instruction, you gain a card costing up to $5.
10. Resolving the second of Throne Room's triggered effects, you play the card (you chose) again: the BoM which is now in trash.
11. Resolving BoM's instructions (before you play it), you choose Smithy, and also set up that it will revert to being BoM when leaving play.
12. Now you actually play Smithy (being played, Smithy's instructions are loaded.)
...

If Throne Room somehow "loaded" the chosen card's text when the effects were triggered (as opposed to resolved), then we would have the opposite problem: BoM would be "loaded" every time, since it's not played yet and so has not turned into anything else yet. So even if we played a BoM-as-Smithy, and so after the first time the card would be in play and still be a Smithy, the second effect would still be to play the card as BoM, and we could choose what to play it as again.

***

Anyway, to sum up:
- We need this rule: All instructions on a card must be followed once it is played.
- The instructions on BoM are actually resolved before playing the card.
- "Play it twice" are two simultaneous instructions to play the chosen card, which we resolve consecutively. Both times it's the chosen card, but what that card is (i.e. what name/type/text/cost it has), is checked when it's played, and not until it's played can the BoM become a Feast.

[AJD]

I think that's the best explanation I've seen for why TR-BoM(Feast) should double-Feast instead of letting you pick another effect for the second time. To sum up, the two plays of a card targeted by Throne Room happen simultaneously, and the player (vacuously) chooses the order. We already know from other interactions that two simultaneous effects can still take place in the chosen order even if the resolution of one eliminates the condition for the other: if you buy Mandarin with Royal Seal, you can top-deck Royal Seal first and then still top-deck Mandarin. So, okay, when you TR-BoM(Feast), you say "I have to play Feast, and I also have to play Feast; guess I'll play Feast first" and even though the condition for playing Feast may no longer be met by the time you get to the second one, the rules for simultaneous effects still require you to do it.

Okay. I'm satisfied by that.

[Jeebus]

I think that's the best explanation I've seen for why TR-BoM(Feast) should double-Feast instead of letting you pick another effect for the second time. To sum up, the two plays of a card targeted by Throne Room happen simultaneously, and the player (vacuously) chooses the order. We already know from other interactions that two simultaneous effects can still take place in the chosen order even if the resolution of one eliminates the condition for the other: if you buy Mandarin with Royal Seal, you can top-deck Royal Seal first and then still top-deck Mandarin. So, okay, when you TR-BoM(Feast), you say "I have to play Feast, and I also have to play Feast; guess I'll play Feast first" and even though the condition for playing Feast may no longer be met by the time you get to the second one, the rules for simultaneous effects still require you to do it.

Well, as you can see from my post, I didn't reach that conclusion. When I realized that both plays of the Throned card happen simultaneously, I thought I would work out that I was in agreement with Donald's ruling. But then I realized that BoM's ability doesn't happen until the triggered effect from Throne Room is actually resolved and thus BoM is played. Just choosing the card doesn't trigger BoM's ability.

[Jeebus]

If you Throned a Feast, then we should Feast twice, right? The Feast could have been something else if you'd picked something else for BoM, but you didn't.

You Throned a BoM, but BoM says "play this as if etc." So really you Throned a Feast. If that Feast vanishes - for example moving to the trash, or maybe turning into a different card wtf - we should still Feast a second time.

I dunno, that's how I see it now, we will see if anyone produces a compelling counterargument. Also again for the moment that is how funsockets works.

I think I've produced a compelling counterargument. See previous posts. Short version here in reply to what you wrote: When you Throned the BoM, you Throned it as BoM, not Feast. It doesn't turn into a Feast until you play it. Throning it triggers two effects: playing the chosen card and playing the chosen card. You resolve one first, then the other. First you play the chosen card. At that point does the chosen card's abilites trigger. BoM actually has a before-play ability that triggers then: it lets you choose another action card to play it as. You choose Feast and then the card is played as Feast. You trash it, it turns back into a BoM. You then resolve "play the chosen card" again, which is now a BoM.

Just choosing a card does not make any of its abilities trigger, unless the card had a "when you choose this" ability. BoM's before-play ability doesn't trigger when it's chosen.

[Donald X.]

I think I've produced a compelling counterargument. See previous posts. Short version here in reply to what you wrote: When you Throned the BoM, you Throned it as BoM, not Feast. It doesn't turn into a Feast until you play it. Throning it triggers two effects: playing the chosen card and playing the chosen card. You resolve one first, then the other. First you play the chosen card. At that point does the chosen card's abilites trigger. BoM actually has a before-play ability that triggers then: it lets you choose another action card to play it as. You choose Feast and then the card is played as Feast. You trash it, it turns back into a BoM. You then resolve "play the chosen card" again, which is now a BoM.

Just choosing a card does not make any of its abilities trigger, unless the card had a "when you choose this" ability. BoM's before-play ability doesn't trigger when it's chosen.

BoM says "play this as if it were..." Throne makes you play a card. So you play BoM as if it were a Feast. That means you played a Feast. You Throned a Feast, so you Feast twice. You didn't play a BoM; that would be playing BoM as BoM, not as Feast.

You have not convinced me to change this stance. The BoM card reverts to a BoM, before the second Feast, but you didn't Throne a BoM.

[Jeebus]

BoM says "play this as if it were..." Throne makes you play a card. So you play BoM as if it were a Feast. That means you played a Feast. You Throned a Feast, so you Feast twice. You didn't play a BoM; that would be playing BoM as BoM, not as Feast.

You have not convinced me to change this stance. The BoM card reverts to a BoM, before the second Feast, but you didn't Throne a BoM.

But you haven't really responded to my reasoning I think. The point is the timing: triggering effects and then resolving them.
Every card's effects are first triggered and then resolved.

Throne Room's first instruction is easy, it triggers and resolves right away: you choose a card - a BoM. At this point the card chosen is not seen as anything else than a BoM by any effect in the game, because it hasn't been played. No instruction has of yet told you to play it.

Throne Room's second instruction to "play it twice" triggers two simultaneous effects (play the chosen card + play the chosen card). At the point that these effects are triggered, the card's (BoM's) effects are not triggered or resolved. First you have to actually resolve the two simultaneous effects, in any order you wish. Then, upon each resolving of the effect ("play the chosen card") you actually get to the card text of BoM, which happens when you play it. The playing of BoM triggers its before-play ability, but it doesn't trigger until you play it. It's just like when a when-would-gain ability is triggered when you gain something - it might stop the gain. In this case BoM is played, but the before-play ability interferes and makes it so another card is effectively being played instead.

If you start part-way resolving effects at the time they are triggered, and then the rest when they are actually supposed to be resolved, I think that presents a lot of chaos.

What step or which steps here do you think is actually wrong?

[Donald X.]

Throne Room's second instruction to "play it twice" triggers two simultaneous effects (play the chosen card + play the chosen card).

Throne Room as I read it causes two sequential things to happen, not two simultaneous things. The thing that sets those two sequential things happening in motion is one thing that sets both in motion at once. But uh it's different from saying it's two simultaneous things. There's no ordering required. Well both things are the same but you know what I mean? At one moment in time, Throne Room queues up an action to be played twice in sequence. It's like uh Merchant Ship causes you to gain $2 at the start of your next turn, but the moment when it causes that to happen is when we reach that instruction when playing it, not next turn. Which would matter for Procession / Merchant Ship and man I wonder how the Germans are dealing with that since they used dividing lines on their duration cards.

In this case BoM is played, but the before-gain ability interferes and makes it so another card is effectively being played instead.

I think the key difference is that to me, you cannot play a BoM (unless no cheaper cards are in the supply). When you (try to) play it is always something else that you played. You didn't play a BoM. Anything that cares about you playing a BoM does not see that you did; you played whatever you picked instead. This is true even for Throne Room. You choose a card in your hand; you can choose BoM, that's fine. Then you play it twice and oops what you are playing twice is somehow a Feast instead. BoM is the only thing like this and well it was the only way I could see to make BoM work.

For me the important things at this point are:

- If at all possible I want the rulebook to be correct. People in general go to the rulebook, not to ds.
- If at all possible I want zero other situations in the game to be affected by how this goes.
- If at all possible I do not want to devote much time to this. I don't want anyone to feel shortchanged here, I will devote some continuing tiny amount of time to this if need be. But uh it could just be eating up hours and I do not imagine it is confusing most people or making them demand rules justice. So if some time passes here before maximum possible satisfaction is achieved, I am okay with that.