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[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - i just reread the thread - and didn't come to a conclusion.  Rereading RobZ still made me feel scummy about him (pushing morgrim lynch, preferrring to lynch new players), and he didn't really have any other reads to sheep now that we know that he was actually town instead.

O - our other confirmed townie - really only suspected RobZ - and his final words were to ignore RobZ's read- something that I had missed the first time through.

WIFOM: Was this why O was killed?  To keep us from going after Morgrim? I doubt it because it still requires crafty morgrim play.

I have a slightly bad feeling about Cuzz -  who has been quiet in general, and quieter on Day 2, but I don't see a case on him - other than he voted for morgrim today.

I have to run out to play some golf - but I'll park a vote on him to get him to talk

Vote: Cuzz - Tell us who you think is scummy and why - or who you think is town and why. 

Next checkin likely to be late tonight or early tomorrow AM.  We still have some time - but if people are around - I encourage you all to fully reread the thread and start to think about who you like.  I'm leaning toward Asher as town n00b at this point (although with some bad play, and I'm unlikely to want to lynch Voltaire. That leaves (from my perspective) eevee, Geolib, Jorbles, and Cuzz as potential lynch candidates.

Oh - Voltaire - you are correct that I did indeed fly under the radar - as i reread the thread - I was shocked to see how quiet i was day 1.  I kept expecting to see my next post around the corner and it never came!  as others have pointed out, I am in a bunch of games (one fewer since those bastards in M8 lynched me while I was driving) 

Of course - you're guilty of the same - but I can't really ask you to defend the behavior.

[Cuzz]

Hey Frisk, thanks for calling me out on being too quiet. Sometimes I keep up with reading the thread and forget I haven't personally posted anything substantial in a while, which makes the game less fun, while making me look like scum, so that's no good all around.

I don't have much time to post for a bit so I'll give a brief rundown. I agree with Frisk that Voltaire is probably town. It's hard ignore the meta: I just think Morgrim would not have dropped out if he'd had an interesting role. I'm also leaning toward ashersky being a townie who got a little nervous about a wagon on him.

Eevee, Jorbles, and Geolib I'm a little mixed on. Eevee and Geolib post a lot of in depth analysis, which seems townie to me. I think it'd be hard to post that much content as scum without slipping, though maybe I've missed something. I read town on them for now.

Jorbles has been a bit quiet (though no more so than me), so I'm not sure what to think. I'm a little suspicious of Jorbles repeated emphasis that "good scum play and good town play are the same thing." I can't quite articulate why that strikes me as scummy, but it does.

Now for the controversial move. Frisk has done a decent amount of posting, but most of it seems to be clarifying and questioning the posts of others, without offering a lot of original content, seeming to be active without much actual scumhunting. Then he votes for me. Maybe he really does think I'm scummy, but he says himself that he doesn't see a case for voting for me.

If Frisk were scum, why would he vote for me then? There are already semi-formed wagons on ash and Geo, so trying to start another this close to the deadline doesn't seem productive, so maybe he wants to fly under the radar by voting for someone who hasn't really been suspected so far, and let his partner drive the wagon on another townie.

Sorry for the lack of quotes and the rambling post. I'm in a bit of a rush and I'll try to clarify later. For now, I Vote: Captain_Frisk. This is not OMGUS, though it looks like it. There's no place for that as town on D2, and I doubt scum would be stupid enough to do what I'm doing now. What are others' thoughts on Frisk? Anyone else suspicious?

[GeoLib]

So looking back I think I understand what you guys are saying about me voting Eevee, and then soon after, ashersky. There are a couple reason I am taking a more active role today:
1. I realized that while caution was good, at some point I'm going to have to accuse someone of being scum, otherwise my voice wasn't very useful. I am a new player (I guess I'll take it as a compliment that you guys don't think I play like one), and I'm still trying to figure out the most beneficial way to play.
2. I feel like I have more to base reads off of today than I did yesterday. It felt weird to have strong reads on anyone yesterday because there was so little information. With the benefit of an extra day, some votes, and some town-flips, I think it's a little easier to construct a logical argument of why someone would be scum, whereas yesterday it felt sort of random, which I disliked.

My vote on Eevee was also put partially to prompt some dialogue, which I felt we needed. I thought that ashersky came out of that dialogue looking pretty scummy, which is why I changed my vote. I would also buy him as newbie town not quite understanding the game yet, though I note that many others of us are also new and don't seem to be having the same problems (everyone is different, of course).

I see your point about Captain Frisk, Cuzz. I would buy him as scum, but I think it's also good to realize that RL and other games also can interfere sometimes, and I think that's also a possibility.

[Eevee]

Yeah Frisk has been in hardcore lurk mode in every game recently.

[Eevee]

That being said, I dont have a particular town read on him either. FWIW lurky Frisk just flipped scum in MVIII. Going for a new wagon is an interesting idea.

[Jorbles]

If Frisk were scum, why would he vote for me then? There are already semi-formed wagons on ash and Geo, so trying to start another this close to the deadline doesn't seem productive, so maybe he wants to fly under the radar by voting for someone who hasn't really been suspected so far, and let his partner drive the wagon on another townie.

Sorry for the lack of quotes and the rambling post. I'm in a bit of a rush and I'll try to clarify later. For now, I Vote: Captain_Frisk. This is not OMGUS, though it looks like it. There's no place for that as town on D2, and I doubt scum would be stupid enough to do what I'm doing now. What are others' thoughts on Frisk? Anyone else suspicious?

He did explicitly say that he was parking a vote on Cuzz "to get him to talk". I don't actually find his vote on Cuzz to be that suspicious, but it is true that he's been doing lots of talking without voting (though he has made heavy use of the FoS which I think he pointed out wasn't that meaningful). I would like to hear Frisk respond to this himself.

For now though I must apologize, I'm also only going to be able to check in once or twice a day until Monday, when I can be a bit more active. I still think that GeoLib is the most suspicious player for his play in the earlier portion of d2. I think ash's playstyle is a little erratic and vote happy, which draws attention to him, but I don't think he's necessarily scummy. Yeah, I'm sheeping a bit, but I do buy this explanation, which makes me comfortable revoting. [Vote: GeoLib]

[yuma]

Vote Count 2-6

ashersky (2): Eevee, Geolib
GeoLib (2):  asherkey, Jorbles
Cuzz (1): Captain_Frisk
Captain_Frisk (1): Cuzz

Not voting (1): Voltaire

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Lynch deadline: Tuesday, September 4, at noon EDT

Vote Count links have been added to the front page and will continue to be updated throughout for easy access

[Captain_Frisk]

Uhoh - weekend times setting in eh? 

Unvote

So - there isn't much to respond to from Cuzz -there's no real case, but at least he came in and made a post. 

I think its funny that he accuses me of not doing anything, while responding to my post that is actively scum hunting (forcing people to talk)

We're getting closer and it looks like the 2 viable wagons are ash and geo.  I find geo to be more scummy here, because i read asherkey as a town newbie making newbie mistakes - but the case against ahser is stronger.  If eevee behaved like asherkey, I'd vote for him in 1/2 a second.

[Eevee]

The good thing is, it's quite likely one of them is scum (I think). IF we lynch ashersky and he flips town, we have a super strong case on Geo which is good. Although yeah, hitting scum today would be swell, barring some power role action we are going to be facing 3-2 situation tomorrow if we lynch a townie today.

Dont know, but I definitely think it's too late to start building a case on anyone else. Sucks though, everyone but Voltgrim ( looks scummy to me here. Where are the obvtowns, PoE doesn't work if you cant eliminate anyone!

Everyone: Would you be willing to vote for ashersky or GeoLib, and why? Do you agree with me that it has to be one of the two?

[Captain_Frisk]

@eevee - I think i would vote geolib, but not Ashersky. 

I do not agree that it has to be one of those two.  If you voted for me, both Geo and I would be @ L-2, and then you could say it has to be one of us?

However - this close to deadline - and with this little activity - I think I agree that it probably WILL be one of them.

Why do you think that asher is better than geo?  What leads you to think that he is scum instead of noob?

[Eevee]

Why do you think that asher is better than geo?  What leads you to think that he is scum instead of noob?

First of all, Geo if town would be more helpful tomorrow. 2nd of all, Geo jumping on ashersky when I started the wagon today is very scummy if ashersky is town. So his flip would be more informational, don't know what we'd be able to deduct from Geo's flip other than that Jorbles can't be his buddy so if Geo is mafia, Jorbles has to be town.

They both have basically the same case against them (opportunistic voting). On top of that, ashersky would be the more informational flip and generally has behaved scummier (which could or could not be just inexperience). I don't know, would be great to have both at L-1 to see their behavior (and how others would react), but we don't really have that luxury do we. Noteworthy point is that it's generally harder to lynch mafia than town, because the partner likely won't bus here. Ashersky wagon first gaining speed and then stalling makes it a bit more likely he is scum I think.

[GeoLib]

I buy that ashersky could be noob town, but I know that I am town, so if it has to be one of us than I obviously vote ashersky. I don't think the case against me is really that good though. I thought I explained why I voted the way I did pretty well, and I'm not sure anyone has responded to that defense. Additionally, I'm not sure I agree with the idea that we have to lynch either ashersky or me: it's thinking like that that got Robz lynched.

[ashersky]

First of all, Geo if town would be more helpful tomorrow. 2nd of all, Geo jumping on ashersky when I started the wagon today is very scummy if ashersky is town. So his flip would be more informational, don't know what we'd be able to deduct from Geo's flip other than that Jorbles can't be his buddy so if Geo is mafia, Jorbles has to be town.

Knowing how I would flip, I am even more comfortable with my Geo vote.

Eevee makes a good point on the informational nature of my flip.  That said, losing me would be detrimental to town, so I say just lynch mafia instead.  When I flip town, it casts more suspicion on Geo, as mentioned, but I think would also point some interest Eevee's way, given he tried to start the wagon on me on D1 and did start it on D2.

What does Geo's mafia flip give us, informationally?  Helpful to see who voted for him, who didn't, etc.  I think it will be just as helpful.  Now if he did flip town, that'll look bad for a few of us, including me and Jorbles.

It looks like Frisk and Voltgrim look to stand the safest with either of us getting lynched, so I expect careful play from both of them.  Who hammers (and sets up the hammer) will be key to watch.

[Eevee]

Oh that's true, the way Frisk has avoided getting himself acquitted with anyone is indeed quite alarming. Can't really blame Voltgrim imo, since most of the game was played by Grim who always play like that.

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh that's true, the way Frisk has avoided getting himself acquitted with anyone is indeed quite alarming. Can't really blame Voltgrim imo, since most of the game was played by Grim who always play like that.

Was that an autocorrect?  Do you mean avoid actually picking geolib / ashersky - or avoiding suspicion in general.  if the former - that would be fear of putting people @ L-1 prematurely.  If the latter, then right back at you buddy. You, Cuzz, Jorbles, Volt and I have all avoided real suspicion.  I think part of this is that RobZ and O had no reads other than Morgrim and RobZ to go chase down.  So we have asher - who seems scummy or noob, and we have geolib (and i suppose eevee as well) who are trying to push on that play. 

I keep thinking about what i would do if I was tracker / cop / vig / serial killer from my previous games.  I kindof sucked as a SK in 4, but I did well tracking and copping in MM1, and RMM1.  My gut says that I'd want to see what geolib was up to - and if it was time to submit my night action I'd investigate / track / shoot geolib.

Vote: GeoLib - Please no quickhammering folks.  Anyone who does so without ample time for discussion from everyone will be regarded as scum.

I'll probably be on for the next hour or so, and then I'll be able to check again Monday morning.  After that I'm going to be phone posting only unless someone has a wifi access point.

[GeoLib]

I'm at L-1, then. Should I claim. Regardless, you guys are making a mistake

[GeoLib]

That was supposed to be a question...
Should I claim?

[Eevee]

What I meant was that, no one flipping anything will really say anything of your alignment. Not true anymore, Geo flipping scum would definitely give you a lot of town cred after that vote.

Problem though! I know I'm not Geo's scum partner. I dont think Jorbles would start a wagon on him if he was his partner, and they are both voting for each other with ashersky so that cant really be a team either. That means that if Geo is indeed scum, the only possible partners for him would be Voltaire (who we have established looks very towny) and Cuzz. Sure, Cuzz could be the partner, but only one likely possibility is.. really bad.

I think this is pretty important and I do not support the GeoLib lynch one bit because of this.

[Eevee]

That was supposed to be a question...
Should I claim?

Don't claim yet. I'm quite sure you are town because of the reasons above, lets see if others agree. Too many people want you gone for you to be scum!

[GeoLib]

Ok. I will hold off on claiming then. I can post again this evening, and if someone could let me know which of my actions they want me to defend (that I haven't already), that would be great. I don't really know what to do to dissuade you guys. Please bear in mind that a townie lynch puts us at LyLo tomorrow barring a PR success. Also, at LyLo, scum will be able to quickhammer on any vote that is cast for the win.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, geo - when you are around tonight - can you explain why you view Asher as scummy enough to put a 2nd vote on him / her early in the day?  After further review and the better part of a real life week to reflect - do you still find Ash scummy?

[Eevee]

Ok, geo - when you are around tonight - can you explain why you view Asher as scummy enough to put a 2nd vote on him / her early in the day?  After further review and the better part of a real life week to reflect - do you still find Ash scummy?

What do you think of my post above? Who do you think are his possible team mates?

[GeoLib]

Ok, geo - when you are around tonight - can you explain why you view Asher as scummy enough to put a 2nd vote on him / her early in the day?  After further review and the better part of a real life week to reflect - do you still find Ash scummy?

Ok. So the main reason's I voted for ashersky are:

1. I thought him criticizing Eevee on panicking when he thought he was at L-1 was uncalled for, and potentially scum trying to make a big deal out of nothing.
2. His (potentially willful) misunderstanding of my point that "voting is not a scumtell" which was an earlier criticism of him OMGUSing Eevee.
3. Him repeatedly calling for people to give me "closer look," and then rather than doing this himself. This seemed like it could be scum trying to get someone else to start a wagon that he could join (which he did - note that Jorbles unvoted then revoted, which is why he appears second instead of first)
4. His (potentially willful) misunderstanding of how what counts as role-claiming. This is likely a newb-tell, not a scum-tell
5. Threatening to put Eevee at L-1 (hopping on my wagon)
6. Him reminding Eevee that I was voting for him (Eevee) at the time as if that should make Eevee suspect me.
7. His hammer on Robz ended a potential wagon on him, and caused the lynch of townie
8. His hammer on Robz immediately followed someone asking the town in general whether they thought he should hammer. i.e. he could have left to consensus, but decided to just do it himself.
9. He immediately hopped on Cuzz's Morgrim wagon, when a wagon was forming on him

I didn't consider putting someone at L-2 to be as big of a deal as you obviously do. As long as everyone is careful with their votes, L-2 shouldn't be a problem.

As to my current opinions on ashersky's scumminess, I think there are two options:

1. He's playing as a newbish town, confused about a number of the conventions, and not very level-headedly.
2. He is scum, often trying to deflect suspicion away from himself, jumping on wagons whenever he thinks they might succeed in lynching town, and hiding behind being a noob to cover his more egregious mistakes.

I think the first option is possible, but I think his play so far has been slightly anti-town, regardless of his alignment.

For me, I know there to be only one option:

1. Nooby town who is nevertheless attempting to play cautiously for the benefit of the town (please note the difference between ashersky and me when a wagon formed on us. I am not panicked, but I know you guys are making the wrong decision). Prepared to claim if necessary.

I'm not sure there's time to form a new wagon. I do not agree with Eevee's assessment that a new wagon would be impossible (it looks like we might be able to build one on Frisk). My read on Frisk is pretty null though: I could certainly see him as scum who's hiding behind V/LA to not post much content, but I could also see him as actually just busy. For now, my favorite wagon is ashersky, and creating my list of reasons has solidified my position (though I am still far from certain that he's scum).

Are there any other questions I can answer?

[Cuzz]

That means that if Geo is indeed scum, the only possible partners for him would be Voltaire (who we have established looks very towny) and Cuzz. Sure, Cuzz could be the partner, but only one likely possibility is.. really bad.

Eevee, if it helps your analysis, I'm not scum!

I'm not in favor of this Geolib lynch. I'm not crazy about the ashersky lynch either, but I'd prefer it to Geolib. My vote stays on Frisk.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, geo - when you are around tonight - can you explain why you view Asher as scummy enough to put a 2nd vote on him / her early in the day?  After further review and the better part of a real life week to reflect - do you still find Ash scummy?

What do you think of my post above? Who do you think are his possible team mates?

Oh - was this at me?  I read it more as additional questions for geolib.

I found your post somewhat confusing.  i don't really see how the Asher flip is more informative than the geo.  I mean - I can see your argument that if Ashery magically died right now - and flipped town - then you'd be pretty suspicious of geo.  However, you'll need 2 other people on the wagon, so its not like an Asher town flip is going to definitely implicate geo.  You also don't seem at all convinced that asher is scum.  I think going for an informational lynch over a scum lynch is a bad idea at this point. 

I do agree that the fact that the wagon has stalled is interesting, although the same thing can be said of Mr. Geolib.

As for geo partners - I think i've already sortof answered that.

My reads are that Morgrim/Volt is town, and that Asher is town.  That leaves 2 scum remaining out of {Cuzz, Eevee, Geolib, Jorbles}.  I am the least suspicious of you, but I think this is M7 carry over.  Geo is my strongest read out of the group.

Reminder folks - we have 24 hours.  If Cuzz won't vote geo, Geo won't vote geo, eevee doesn't want to, that really leaves Volt. Volt - if you say no to geo, then we need to either find another candidate - or we need to be prepared to no lynch twice in a row.  (a mislynch with 6 townies is just as game ending as a mislynch with 5, and its alot harder to get 4 townies to co-operate than it is to get 3) 

I've got about 2 more hours until I'm heading across the lake.  Not sure how good the phone data is going to be, i'll have to see if neighbors have wifi, but don't count on me making any mega posts.