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Author Topic: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!  (Read 42756 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2012, 06:47:56 pm »
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If you choose a card to gain, then gain it, like Iso's Tournament implementation suggests, then IW already knows it plans on doing a Great Hall and has enough info to yield +1 card +1 action as the bonus, since there is no "if you do".
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2012, 10:11:18 pm »
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Hitchcock
$4 - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card
Gain a copper in hand.
Gain up to 3 more Coppers, +1 Card per Copper gained.
The way I read this, the 'per copper gained' includes the one you get in hand, which makes it lab+gain a copper in hand, which already might be weaker than lab, or might be stronger, but should cost 5. Then it has another bonus. Too strong.

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Wilder
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one that isn't a Victory card or a Curse. Put the revealed cards into your hand. If you didn't reveal a Victory card or a Curse, gain a Victory card costing up to $5, putting it on top of your deck.
Seems weak. Gaining a duchy is not so hot, unless you're doing an alternate VP push, where it is very very very good. But you wouldn't want this in any other kind of deck, early on, and you probably won't really pick it up later. I don't think I like the idea anyway.
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Ford
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Discard a card for each other [This Card] you have in play.
Reveal your hand. +1 Card per Copper revealed.
I'm not sure about this. The discard happens first, but probably won't be a big deal. Often going to be something a bit like stables early, a slightly weaker lab after very long, and usually not worse. But while this makes it very good, I'm not sure it would be TOO good.

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Kubrick
$4 - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card for every 6 cards in the trash pile up to 4 cards, rounded up.
If no cards are in the trash pile, +1 Card, +$1.
I don't like the big trash thing, seems wonky and weird, and the presence of various kinds of trashing are going to make it play so much differently so weird. Mleh.
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Welles
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Choose one of the following:
+1 Card, +$1.
+2 Cards, +1 Buy.
+3 Cards, gain a Copper.
Strictly better than lab. Maaaaaybe okay at 6, but uh, well, I don't so much think so.
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Renoir
$3 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
If the top card of the trash pile costs more than this card: +1 Card.
Order of trash is a not good thing.

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Spielberg
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard one of them. Put the other two into your hand.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card that you have discarded.

This is generally better than lab, and at the 4 price point. I don't think it's so clearly superior that you couldn't do it at 5 - look at HP - but I am not so sure. And def not 4.

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Capra
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.  The player to your left separates them into two piles.  Choose one pile to discard and draw the rest.
This card though, is really really close to just being plain better than lab. I mean, you have a 2 vs 3, in which case you get at least a lab, with guaranteed above-average cards, or double lab with weaker ones; or you get 1 v 4, in which case you can STILL get the one card, if you really need it, or it's a triple lab. I would like this a lot better if the roles were flipped, though there it's still going to outclass a lab by a good margin.
Maybe you can do this as a 6. Probably

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Malick
$6 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal your hand.
+2 Cards for every Action card in your hand.
Trash this card.
--
This card may not be gained, it may only be bought.
The wording on the restriction needs to be fixed. Seems to suffer from FBI
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Ozu
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck.
Put 2 cards in your hand that do not share any type or subtype.
Discard the rest.
--
(Rule clarifications:  As always you try to do as much as you can. So if you reveal 3 Treasures, you can put 1 in hand and have to discard the others.)
I think I like this. Your choice of two from three, but you can't get two of the same kind. So you can chain up an action and treasure fairly often, or the best card of three otherwise, quite possibly with a junk card. Actually that's really good filtering anyway - this probably needs to be a 4-cost, and maybe even 5. So it seems strong. Also probably doesn't need to have the whole 'sub-type' thing.

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Nolan
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Discard a card costing $0 from your hand.  If you do, +3 Cards.
Soooo close to stables; better in cursing games, slightly worse most of the time otherwise. Looks too good for 4, too similar to stables too.
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Lang
$3 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
When you play this, the player to your left reveals a card from his hand.  Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal the named card.
If you do, trash it or put it in your hand, your choice.  Otherwise, gain a copy of the named card.
I don't know, this seems like a lot for not that exciting of an effect. The whole thing just seems like interaction, for no real reason. I like interaction, but this doesn't seem to have a great point, for me anyhow.
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Curtiz
$6 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal three cards costing at most $4. Put those cards into your hand, discard the other revealed cards.
Eh, I don't know. So much card draw, but all of crap - I bet this is pretty weak at 6, anyway. Maybe not.

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Coen
$5 - Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
If there are no cards on your [This Card] mat, set aside an Action or Treasure card from your hand onto your [This Card] mat or reveal a hand with no Actions or Treasure cards. Otherwise, take a card from your [This Card] mat and place it in your hand.
So, basically like lab and haven. Color me unimpressed, though maybe it's ok.

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Tarantino
$5 - Action
+1 Action
The player to your left names a card.
Reveal cards from you deck until you reveal the named card, putting it and one other revealed card of your choice into your hand.

I name the jack of clubs, then this reads as a total tutor. Or, I can name something like copper, and there's a good chance you only get to draw that. So, maybe this isn't really a bad design, just over-costed. This could cost 2, or 3, in all likelihood.

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Lean
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is a Copper, put it in your hand.
Discard any number of Coppers. +1 Card per Copper discarded.
So it can lab on copper, fine, that's not too bad, and then you get a weakened cellar. Seems strong, but not so broken if you get a few early - the cellar-ing copper is not so good early - so seems like it could definitely be 4, strong though it is. Seems decent. Pretty good.

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Chabrol
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard 2 Victory cards. If you do, +3 Cards.
Hmm, you can't, just can't green enough to make this reliable, so I don't like the swinginess.

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Fellini
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck.  The player to your left chooses one for you to set aside.  Draw the rest.
--
During cleanup, return the set aside cards to the top of your deck, in any order.
Hmm, I am trying to work out, how should the opponent break things up. This ought to be worse than lab, has to be right, but because they don't know your hand, I doubt it will be much worse. And with enough cantrips (i.e. any time you can play one after this), it won't be worse at all. Indeed, better, since you know what's left. So seems very very close to lab, and probably a bit strong, therefore.

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Truffaut
$3 - Action
+1 Action
If you have an odd number of cards in play (including this), +2 Cards.
An odd number of cards? I love math, but I'll pass.... hey, this reminds me of an interesting discussion on the platonic ideals of numbe.... yeah, some other time.

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Fincher
$5 - Action-Victory
Worth 1 VP
+1 Action
+$1
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.
So this is scout on a copper stick, and it gives a vp, mostly to be able to draw itself I am sure, but in all honesty, this has to be weak still. Copper isn't good that a scout ability, and/or a vp, would isn't enough to make me want to spend 5 on one, you know.

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Bergman
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Action cards into your hand. Discard the rest.
--
At the end of your clean-up phase, place this card at the bottom of your deck instead of discarding it.

Has FBI issues. Also gets you a big chain at the bottom of your deck real easy.

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Lynch
$3 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
The opponent to your left reveals and discards the top card of their deck.  Reveal the top card of your deck. If it costs less than your opponent's card, place it in your hand; if it does not, discard it.

The risk is so rarely worth the reward. If you lose this, it's so bad for you....

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Visconti
$5 - Action-Duration
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn:
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses two for you to discard. Draw the rest.
--
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card on top of your deck.
Worst two out of four is very often a penalty, I think, if you have to have your good cards miss the reshuffle. When you are getting close to drawing everything, it can be good of course, though even then, other engine components are probably better. I actually think this is not so good, even for $2......
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Murnau
$5 - Action
+4 Cards
+1 Action
Discard a card per [This Card] in play (including this one).
The first one is a double lab, and the second is still a lab. So you can't chain a ton of these, like with lab, but you just don't. In all honesty, grabbing SO many labs isn't that good very often anyway. Too strong.

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Melville
$3 - Action-Reaction
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. If it costs $0 and isn't a Treasure, +3 Cards.
--
When you gain a card costing less than this, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, put the gained card in your hand.

The first part is so... bad. You don't want to have that stuff, you aren't going to be able to trash it reliably, etc. Now, it defends a bit better, but it's basically worthless except against cursers and looters.

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Coppola
$4 - Action
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Discard 3 cards or a Silver.
So, this is SO close to warehouse, I don't think I like it. I mean, this obsoletes warehouse too much for me.

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Huston
$4 - Action-Duration
+1 Card
+1 Buy
+1 Action
On your next turn, draw 7 cards during your draw phase instead of 5.  If you play more than 3 actions, trash this card.
I don't think the designer understands that next turn's clean-up affects the turn after next? Even so, seems really really good in early-mid. And... play more than three actions... WHEN?
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Kurosawa
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
All players reveal a card from his hand. If all players revealed a Treasure card, +1 Card for all (including you) and +$1 for you. Otherwise, all players gain a Copper, putting it into his hand (including you).

Seems really really really really weak, because you have to buy this for 4 and basically get an equal effect as your opponents.

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Griffith
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal any number of Coppers from your hand and draw that many cards.  Trash one of the revealed Coppers.  If you do not reveal a Copper, gain a Copper and put it into your hand.
Self-regulation is real interesting, but uh, I think the card is not.
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Wyler
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Pick one: Gain a card costing up to $4 onto your [This Card] mat, or place a card from your [This Card] mat into your hand.
--
At the end of the game, trash all of the cards on your [This Card] mat.

This is totally gain in hand, just delayed, so I am surprised that it qualifies. Having said that, I think I like it.

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Cukor
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may gain a Copper, putting it into your hand. If you do, +1 Card.
Well like i said earlier, I think lab+gain-copper-in-hand is in fact comparable in power to lab in a lot of cases, and that it's optional makes this too strong fo sho. Again, as 5 it's probably totally good.

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Herzog
$4 - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card
Choose one: +3 Cards, and return this card to the supply; or trash a card from your hand, and gain a [This Card]; or put this card on your deck at the start of your Clean-up phase.
--
(Rules clarification: When doubled or trebled with Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession, you may choose the first option multiple times despite returning only this copy of [This Card] to the supply.  You may gain multiple [This Card]s with the second option, but you must trash one card for each copy you gain.  You can only put the played copy on top of your deck; choosing this option does nothing if the card was returned to the supply.  If the card was returned to the supply with the first option, it cannot be trashed by Procession, and you do not gain a card costing $5.)
Seems really really really strong.
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DeMille
$6 - Action
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Discard a card.
--
While this is in play, you can't buy any Treasure.
I don't like the 'buy any treasure' thing in general.
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Eisenstein
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one; you get the version in parentheses:
Each player draws 2 (1) cards and discards 2 (0) cards from his hand;
or each player draws 2 (3) cards and discards 1 (1) card from his hand.
--
While this is in play, Attack cards you play do not affect players with more than 5 cards in hand.
The second will be way better than the first most often I think. But I think this probably has FBI issues.
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Scorsese
$4 - Action
+1 Action
You may gain a Copper, if you do +2 Cards.
You may gain an Estate, if you do +1 Card.
You may gain a Curse, if you do +1 Card.
Great in the endgame. Not terrible early, though not great. And uh, I don't understand why the copper benefit is so much the best.

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Cassavetes
$4 - Action
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand. Discard two differently named cards which are not Action cards from your hand if you can.

Usually this is copper and estate, or estate and province, or copper and province, or occasionally copper and silver, but this is basically always a much better warehouse.
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Bunuel
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Victory Cards. Put them into your hand. Shuffle the other revealed cards back into your deck.
This card is really terrible. So, it basically just trashes two estates for you, while letting you keep the points - IF you draw it before the green in your reshuffle. And you have to waste a $5 for that. Won't be very useful very often.

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Lubitsch
$4 - Action
Reveal your hand. If there are no Action our Treasure cards costing $5 or more in it +2 Cards, +1 Action.
I wonder how good this is in a deck with just this and silver, and maybe a good cheap terminal or two, and/or sifters. But you know, that's the only deck it's good for t all, right, because this does NOTHING for you if you don't activate it, which I don't like. I don't think it would be so broken if this were cantrip that labbed in the same situation it activates in now, but always a cantrip.

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Kazan
$5 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Every other player with at least 5 cards in hand discards a Treasure card or reveals a hand without any Treasure.
--
You can't gain this if you have a [This Card] in play.
The first of these is strictly better than lab. And you know, it's always strictly better than lab, just a little harder to chain, but that's not such a huge thing anyway, really, is it? Too good.
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Leone
$5 - Action
+1 Buy
You may discard a Treasure. If you do, then +4 Cards, +1 Action, and each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, then he draws 2 cards.
I feel like I've seen this before, or something really similar, but I don't like this more now than before....

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Altman
$3 - Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Each other player may choose one: Discard his hand and draw 4 cards OR Draw up to 6 cards in hand.
So the first in a turn is a lab that labs your opponents, and then each subsequent is a lab. And its a little better for your opponent with their other option too. So this seems really really really weak anyway

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Powell
$6 - Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck.  Discard them or put them back.
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Lab with a little filter. Probably real weak at 6.

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Eastwood
$2 - Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Draw any number of cards up to the number of Buys you have in play. -1 Buy for each card drawn this way.
I don't like the trading buys for cards, or at least how it is done here.

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Pollack
$4 - Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Each other player draws a card, then discards a card from hand.
Lab, opponents get to filter one in the best possible way. Probably a fine card - filter 1 is pretty good. Maybe this can even cost 3. Maybe.
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Antonioni
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may reveal your hand. If you do and you have no Treasure Cards other than Copper in your hand, reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Treasure Card that isn't a Copper.
Put it into your hand and discard the rest.
So it's either a cantrip, or a cantrip WITH silver, like an activated conspirator? But with this weird restriction. At least it can't stack. Actually, this is prolly weak, right?

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Clouzot
$3 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. The player to your left picks one for you to discard. Put the others into your hand.
Copper and estate, or silver and estate, or two coppers, with the cycling, is really not so bad. But you lose good cards for shuffles - this could probably cost 2. But mostly on the weak side isn't so so bad. And I don't know that it's too terrible.

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Gilliam
$5 - Action-Looter
Gain a Copper, Estate, or Ruins to the top of your deck.
+1 Action
+3 Cards
So, just making this copper gets you that lab-with a copper that seems comparable to lb, and you can get an estate too, so that's not so bad. I don't like the looter aspect, though, at all. But besides that, it's got to be a pretty fair card. Pretty much like it.

GendoIkari

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2012, 11:13:23 pm »
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If you choose a card to gain, then gain it, like Iso's Tournament implementation suggests, then IW already knows it plans on doing a Great Hall and has enough info to yield +1 card +1 action as the bonus, since there is no "if you do".

This is wrong. Tournament can indeed gain nothing by choosing to gain a Duchy when Duchies are gone. Just like you can choose to gain a Curse to Torturer after Curses are gone and gain nothing. But if you Trader a card after choosing it with Ironworks, Ironworks will not get any bonus. In the same way, if you play Ironworks on a Possession turn, you will not get any Ironworks bonus, because you never gained a card. This was clarified by Donald in the whole "blue dog" discussion, though he did go back and forth on the ruling a couple times before settling on that. The final decision was based on the fact that the word "it" in Ironworks was determined to refer to "the card you gained."
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2012, 01:31:46 pm »
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If you choose a card to gain, then gain it, like Iso's Tournament implementation suggests, then IW already knows it plans on doing a Great Hall and has enough info to yield +1 card +1 action as the bonus, since there is no "if you do".

This is wrong. Tournament can indeed gain nothing by choosing to gain a Duchy when Duchies are gone. Just like you can choose to gain a Curse to Torturer after Curses are gone and gain nothing.

Ok. I stand corrected. 

I'm not sure whether that card is for the better or the worst because of this.  Now there's a strategy of running out the Ruins or the Estates in order to "activate" the card, sort of like a City". 
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2012, 02:45:02 pm »
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Quote
Wilder
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one that isn't a Victory card or a Curse. Put the revealed cards into your hand. If you didn't reveal a Victory card or a Curse, gain a Victory card costing up to $5, putting it on top of your deck.
Seems weak. Gaining a duchy is not so hot, unless you're doing an alternate VP push, where it is very very very good. But you wouldn't want this in any other kind of deck, early on, and you probably won't really pick it up later. I don't think I like the idea anyway.

I disagree WW. This is a very similar to Scrying Pool in where you draw cards until you draw one that isn't a certain type. In this case, that type (or should I say, types) is Action and Treasure. In addition to this, it has a nice "gain a Duchy to the top" ability if you don't have a deck brimming with Victory cards or Curses. Since the Duchy is gained to the top, you can play a second Wilder to ensure you draw 2 cards. I think this card is actually very good, but not too good. It can really shine in heavy cursing games as well as Duke rush and Gardens rush.

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Visconti
$5 - Action-Duration
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn:
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses two for you to discard. Draw the rest.
--
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card on top of your deck.
Worst two out of four is very often a penalty, I think, if you have to have your good cards miss the reshuffle. When you are getting close to drawing everything, it can be good of course, though even then, other engine components are probably better. I actually think this is not so good, even for $2......

Again, I disagree. This card shouldn't cost two, but it probably shouldn't cost 5. Maybe 4. It's very similar to Envoy in that you draw your worst cards, this one draws far less, but is non terminal and a Duration. I think this card isn't as bad as you say, but is definitely no star. It could easily cost 4 and not be OP.

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Bunuel
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Victory Cards. Put them into your hand. Shuffle the other revealed cards back into your deck.
This card is really terrible. So, it basically just trashes two estates for you, while letting you keep the points - IF you draw it before the green in your reshuffle. And you have to waste a $5 for that. Won't be very useful very often.

Once again, I disagree. This card is +1 Action, +3 Cards... but two of the cards are guaranteed to be Victory cards. It's not a powerhouse, but it outclasses Laboratory in the late game. It also combos with Crossroads and Baron as well as grabbing stuff like Nobles and Islands. What I think is nice about this card is that the other revealed cards are shuffled back into the deck, not discarded like what most "reveal cards from your deck..." cards have you do.


My disagreements with WW are in Bold.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2012, 03:09:35 pm »
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Wilder
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one that isn't a Victory card or a Curse. Put the revealed cards into your hand. If you didn't reveal a Victory card or a Curse, gain a Victory card costing up to $5, putting it on top of your deck.
Seems weak. Gaining a duchy is not so hot, unless you're doing an alternate VP push, where it is very very very good. But you wouldn't want this in any other kind of deck, early on, and you probably won't really pick it up later. I don't think I like the idea anyway.
I disagree WW. This is a very similar to Scrying Pool in where you draw cards until you draw one that isn't a certain type. In this case, that type (or should I say, types) is Action and Treasure. In addition to this, it has a nice "gain a Duchy to the top" ability if you don't have a deck brimming with Victory cards or Curses. Since the Duchy is gained to the top, you can play a second Wilder to ensure you draw 2 cards. I think this card is actually very good, but not too good. It can really shine in heavy cursing games as well as Duke rush and Gardens rush.
I disagree with both: This card is not clever and is not weak, this card is overpowered. When we see cards like Secret Chamber, Cellar, and Embassy that help us work around all the junk in our decks cards like Duke, Gardens, and Silk Road become much more viable.
Wilder however, is the alternate VP strategy with sifting in one card. Stockpile Wilders to gain Duchies and to easily sift through them.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2012, 03:13:58 pm »
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Wilder
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one that isn't a Victory card or a Curse. Put the revealed cards into your hand. If you didn't reveal a Victory card or a Curse, gain a Victory card costing up to $5, putting it on top of your deck.
Seems weak. Gaining a duchy is not so hot, unless you're doing an alternate VP push, where it is very very very good. But you wouldn't want this in any other kind of deck, early on, and you probably won't really pick it up later. I don't think I like the idea anyway.
I disagree WW. This is a very similar to Scrying Pool in where you draw cards until you draw one that isn't a certain type. In this case, that type (or should I say, types) is Action and Treasure. In addition to this, it has a nice "gain a Duchy to the top" ability if you don't have a deck brimming with Victory cards or Curses. Since the Duchy is gained to the top, you can play a second Wilder to ensure you draw 2 cards. I think this card is actually very good, but not too good. It can really shine in heavy cursing games as well as Duke rush and Gardens rush.
I disagree with both: This card is not clever and is not weak, this card is overpowered. When we see cards like Secret Chamber, Cellar, and Embassy that help us work around all the junk in our decks cards like Duke, Gardens, and Silk Road become much more viable.
Wilder however, is the alternate VP strategy with sifting in one card. Stockpile Wilders to gain Duchies and to easily sift through them.

You can only get the Duchies if you don't hit any Victory cards. And in decks this card really shines in (Gardens/Silk Road/Duke) you are most likely going to hit Victory cards, especially if you keep getting more from itself.
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Davio

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2012, 03:58:09 pm »
+3

I always find it hard not to comment on or "defend" my card until the contest is over.  :( :D
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DWetzel

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2012, 04:12:09 pm »
0

I always find it hard not to comment on or "defend" my card until the contest is over.  :( :D

Me too (and I find myself resisting commenting on some of the other cards as a result).  I think mine's being rather underrated in its effectiveness by some people.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2012, 04:19:27 pm »
0

@Archetype

Scrying Pool will draw a bunch of actions if you have high action density.  That's really helpful.  Wilder will draw a bunch of JUNK if you have a lot of junk.  That's weak because it is only functional (still not great) when your deck is poor.  If your deck isn't junky, it's mainly a cantrip that contributes to junking your deck.  It is like Farming Village minus the Village, and drawing that junk instead of skipping past it.  Sometimes that extra draw is good (e.g. Cellar, Crossroads) but usually it's meaningless.  And, again, you won't have that much draw unless your deck is really clogged.

I admit that sometimes the Duchy gaining will be nice.

The problem with discarding your best 2/4 is that you're probably going to lose any actions you draw anyway, so non-terminality doesn't even matter.  It's a huge hit, especially in the late game.  You're just going to lose your best cards and draw Green -- it'll be a Scout that discards good cards!
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Fragasnap

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2012, 04:21:56 pm »
0

You can only get the Duchies if you don't hit any Victory cards. And in decks this card really shines in (Gardens/Silk Road/Duke) you are most likely going to hit Victory cards, especially if you keep getting more from itself.
Three tests buying nothing but Provinces, Gold, Wilder, and Silver (in that order of preference).
First test: Four Duchies by turn 8, eight by turn 11. Next three turn values:$0, $6, and $5.
Second test: Four Duchies by turn 7, eight by turn 14. Next three turn values: $5, $8, and $4.
Four Duchies by turn 12, eight by turn 16 (with an accidental Province). Next three turn values: $7, $6, and $5.

Of course, three tests aren't conclusive, but getting numbers anywhere near this are disconcerting.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2012, 04:28:15 pm »
0

You can only get the Duchies if you don't hit any Victory cards. And in decks this card really shines in (Gardens/Silk Road/Duke) you are most likely going to hit Victory cards, especially if you keep getting more from itself.
Three tests buying nothing but Provinces, Gold, Wilder, and Silver (in that order of preference).
First test: Four Duchies by turn 8, eight by turn 11. Next three turn values:$0, $6, and $5.
Second test: Four Duchies by turn 7, eight by turn 14. Next three turn values: $5, $8, and $4.
Four Duchies by turn 12, eight by turn 16 (with an accidental Province). Next three turn values: $7, $6, and $5.

Of course, three tests aren't conclusive, but getting numbers anywhere near this are disconcerting.

Getting a bunch of Duchies is usually a poor strategy.  And your tests don't seem that fast to me.  Did those tests actually manage to pick up any Provinces on the way?
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2012, 05:23:18 pm »
0


Quote
Wilder
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one that isn't a Victory card or a Curse. Put the revealed cards into your hand. If you didn't reveal a Victory card or a Curse, gain a Victory card costing up to $5, putting it on top of your deck.
Seems weak. Gaining a duchy is not so hot, unless you're doing an alternate VP push, where it is very very very good. But you wouldn't want this in any other kind of deck, early on, and you probably won't really pick it up later. I don't think I like the idea anyway.

I disagree WW. This is a very similar to Scrying Pool in where you draw cards until you draw one that isn't a certain type. In this case, that type (or should I say, types) is Action and Treasure. In addition to this, it has a nice "gain a Duchy to the top" ability if you don't have a deck brimming with Victory cards or Curses. Since the Duchy is gained to the top, you can play a second Wilder to ensure you draw 2 cards. I think this card is actually very good, but not too good. It can really shine in heavy cursing games as well as Duke rush and Gardens rush.

Without the Duchy gain, this is usually worse than Farming Village.  Farming Village is +2 Actions, but the Victory/Curse cards don't go into your hand.  Lots of times the latter won't matter, though there are certainly plenty of combos where having that would be helpful.  I think it would be a reasonable $3 card, somewhere between Vagrant and Farming Village.

The Duchy gain, however, completely changes everything.  It's now no longer good in the early-game or mid-game of normal Province games, because the Duchies clog your deck.  That, in turn, ruins the benefit you'd get from combos, such as drawing Estates into your hand so you can trash them.  This plus Vault might work, but most of the time you are Cursing yourself and will not outscore a Province player unless you can rush piles.

However, games where you CAN rush piles somehow and win on Duchies would, I think, be very interesting games!  So it is narrow, but possibly in an interesting way.

Quote
Quote
Visconti
$5 - Action-Duration
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn:
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses two for you to discard. Draw the rest.
--
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card on top of your deck.
Worst two out of four is very often a penalty, I think, if you have to have your good cards miss the reshuffle. When you are getting close to drawing everything, it can be good of course, though even then, other engine components are probably better. I actually think this is not so good, even for $2......

Again, I disagree. This card shouldn't cost two, but it probably shouldn't cost 5. Maybe 4. It's very similar to Envoy in that you draw your worst cards, this one draws far less, but is non terminal and a Duration. I think this card isn't as bad as you say, but is definitely no star. It could easily cost 4 and not be OP.

Envoy discards 1 out of 5 cards, and that penalty is so severe that often Smithy is better.  2 out of 4 is a HUGE penalty.  Most of the time you'll do crazy things like skip over your Mountebank and Market and draw your Copper and Estate instead.  The fact that it does this twice is worse than just doing it once, because really you don't want to have this effect at all.

Maybe I'm missing something with this card, but I just don't see why you'd ever want it.

Edit:  Maybe if you look at it more as a drawing Royal Seal than a double-Laboratory-with-a-bonus, it looks better.  The while-in-play effect is not insignificant.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 05:24:25 pm by rinkworks »
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Archetype

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2012, 05:25:46 pm »
+1

@Archetype

Scrying Pool will draw a bunch of actions if you have high action density.  That's really helpful.  Wilder will draw a bunch of JUNK if you have a lot of junk.  That's weak because it is only functional (still not great) when your deck is poor.  If your deck isn't junky, it's mainly a cantrip that contributes to junking your deck.  It is like Farming Village minus the Village, and drawing that junk instead of skipping past it.  Sometimes that extra draw is good (e.g. Cellar, Crossroads) but usually it's meaningless.  And, again, you won't have that much draw unless your deck is really clogged.

I admit that sometimes the Duchy gaining will be nice.

The problem with discarding your best 2/4 is that you're probably going to lose any actions you draw anyway, so non-terminality doesn't even matter.  It's a huge hit, especially in the late game.  You're just going to lose your best cards and draw Green -- it'll be a Scout that discards good cards!

I know Wilder isn't always going to be amazing. It seems very narrow, only really shining in Cursing games or Alt Victory strategies.

You do have a point about Viscounti. Unless you have a deck with several copies of the same card, it isn't going to be effective. I guess it isn't as good as I thought it was :P

You can only get the Duchies if you don't hit any Victory cards. And in decks this card really shines in (Gardens/Silk Road/Duke) you are most likely going to hit Victory cards, especially if you keep getting more from itself.
Three tests buying nothing but Provinces, Gold, Wilder, and Silver (in that order of preference).
First test: Four Duchies by turn 8, eight by turn 11. Next three turn values:$0, $6, and $5.
Second test: Four Duchies by turn 7, eight by turn 14. Next three turn values: $5, $8, and $4.
Four Duchies by turn 12, eight by turn 16 (with an accidental Province). Next three turn values: $7, $6, and $5.

Of course, three tests aren't conclusive, but getting numbers anywhere near this are disconcerting.

The problem with doing these Solitaire tests is that people won't just sit back and let you scoop up Duchies. It's the same thing with Duke games. You can't really test it solitaire because a good opponent won't let you take all 8 Duchies. And if they do, they better hope they have a way the can end the game before you pile drive Dukes.

With Wilder, it's the same. They will play Attacks to slow you down, or there will be a better strategy on the board that can surpass the Wilder strategy. And if the best strategy on the board is using Wilder to grab Duchies, that's fine. It just then comes down to skill of what to buy and what support to add on and the luck of the draw.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2012, 05:47:01 pm »
0

And your tests don't seem that fast to me.  Did those tests actually manage to pick up any Provinces on the way?
The first two grabbed about 5-6 Wilders and only managed to grab a single Gold, let alone picking up Province. The third test grabbed one Province when it hit multiple Golds before, but had fewer Wilders in it. Luck of the draw, really.
Regardless, you're grabbing Duchies that won't necessarily push the game to its end. Smithy-Big Money will be grabbing its fourth, maybe its fifth Province (30VP) by the time Wilder-Rush has built up 24VP, and Wilder's economy hasn't taken nearly as big a hit as Smithy-Big Money's has. If Wilder-Rush can grab one Province and Smithy-Big Money let Wilder have all the Duchies, then it has to manage to get 7 Provinces into its deck to beat Wilder-Rush. Again though, this is assuming completely idiotic one-dimensional strategies that don't properly react to what's happening on the board.

The problem with doing these Solitaire tests is that people won't just sit back and let you scoop up Duchies. It's the same thing with Duke games. You can't really test it solitaire because a good opponent won't let you take all 8 Duchies. And if they do, they better hope they have a way the can end the game before you pile drive Dukes.

With Wilder, it's the same. They will play Attacks to slow you down, or there will be a better strategy on the board that can surpass the Wilder strategy. And if the best strategy on the board is using Wilder to grab Duchies, that's fine. It just then comes down to skill of what to buy and what support to add on and the luck of the draw.
I'd prefer to have fewer cards that completely dominate the board and every strategy is going to be built around it. A Wilder rush has a much slower start to its economy, but if it is uncontested, it will grab 24 points of Duchies and can pretty quickly turn around and start buying Provinces. And that's without support to it. Of course, plenty of strategies could scoop up 6 of the Provinces while the Wilder player does his thing, but the fact that my hands were still drawing $4-$6 worth of Treasure after I owned 15 Victory cards (when most engines start seriously choking with 7 Victory cards in them without a plan to get around them) seems an issue.
Yes, cards exist in Dominion that every player practically has to grab (cursing attacks, mainly), but if I'm only going to vote one card from this list in, it's not going to be a one card engine, and non-terminal draw is the easiest design space to accidentally create a card that becomes a one-card engine.

I will give Wilder that it is unique and decently fun to play with (and less time consuming than Hunting Party to boot), but I am worried for its strength and would like to see some extensive non-solitaire testing before I would vote for it. It might just need to be bumped up to $5 to make it harder to rush.

(EDIT: Added response to eHalcyon)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 05:55:44 pm by Fragasnap »
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zahlman

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2012, 09:11:40 pm »
0

Envoy discards 1 out of 5 cards, and that penalty is so severe that often Smithy is better.  2 out of 4 is a HUGE penalty.  Most of the time you'll do crazy things like skip over your Mountebank and Market and draw your Copper and Estate instead.  The fact that it does this twice is worse than just doing it once, because really you don't want to have this effect at all.

Maybe I'm missing something with this card, but I just don't see why you'd ever want it.

Edit:  Maybe if you look at it more as a drawing Royal Seal than a double-Laboratory-with-a-bonus, it looks better.  The while-in-play effect is not insignificant.

Drawing 2 bad cards while 2 good cards miss the shuffle is a net penalty basically all the time, really. Getting some extra cards on your next turn is a nice benefit, but it comes with the same drawback. Basically you'd only want this if you have either (a) a really consistently-valued deck (maybe you're using Trader etc. to flood with Silver? But then you don't really benefit from the card anyway... sure, maybe you draw Viscounti-Silver-Silver-Silver-Silver, then reveal 4 more Silvers, but that's *still* only meaningful in a Colony game), or (b) good enough deck cycling that you get the discarded cards back quickly (but then you're probably close to drawing your deck anyway, so a card like this isn't helping much).

This would be a lot stronger if the opponent's chosen cards went back on the deck. Pretty sure I'd pay $5 for that.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2012, 09:32:06 pm »
0

I always find it hard not to comment on or "defend" my card until the contest is over.  :( :D

Me too (and I find myself resisting commenting on some of the other cards as a result).  I think mine's being rather underrated in its effectiveness by some people.

I don't have that problem because the criticisms of my card are spot-on! :)
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Kirian

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2012, 09:48:23 pm »
+2

I always find it hard not to comment on or "defend" my card until the contest is over.  :( :D

Me too (and I find myself resisting commenting on some of the other cards as a result).  I think mine's being rather underrated in its effectiveness by some people.

I know, right!  I think people feel my card is more powerful than it is.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2012, 10:10:07 pm »
+1

I always find it hard not to comment on or "defend" my card until the contest is over.  :( :D

Me too (and I find myself resisting commenting on some of the other cards as a result).  I think mine's being rather underrated in its effectiveness by some people.

I know, right!  I think people feel my card is more powerful than it is.

I have the opposite problem.  My cards are usually more powerful than I think they are.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2012, 08:00:20 am »
0

I always find it hard not to comment on or "defend" my card until the contest is over.  :( :D

Me too (and I find myself resisting commenting on some of the other cards as a result).  I think mine's being rather underrated in its effectiveness by some people.

I know, right!  I think people feel my card is more powerful than it is.

Same here!
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ashersky

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2012, 08:05:53 am »
+1

I always find it hard not to comment on or "defend" my card until the contest is over.  :( :D

Me too (and I find myself resisting commenting on some of the other cards as a result).  I think mine's being rather underrated in its effectiveness by some people.

I know, right!  I think people feel my card is more powerful than it is.

I have the opposite problem.  My cards are usually more powerful than I think they are.

This is me, too.  I'm a chronic undercoster.
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PenPen

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #96 on: August 23, 2012, 08:40:20 am »
0

It's okay, my card is getting lambasted out there!  ;D
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #97 on: August 23, 2012, 01:07:38 pm »
0

WW (Or whoever), what are FBI issues?
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #98 on: August 23, 2012, 01:11:02 pm »
0

There is a new thread in the regular part of Variants and Fan Cards on FBI. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4277.0
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« Reply #99 on: August 23, 2012, 01:16:32 pm »
0

There is a new thread in the regular part of Variants and Fan Cards on FBI. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4277.0

Thanks!
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