Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[werothegreat]

"And it does make a difference functionally."  So damn the thematics but what about function?  There are tons of combos that are different just because it has that Victory label on it.  You say "0 VP" could be extrapolated to the other cards, but you can't extrapolate that "Victory" type, and since it has that type it needs something on the card to say how many VP it's worth.  That's not an inconsistency -- it's a consistency.  What would be an inconsistency would be if something called "Overgrown Estate" weren't a Victory card in the first place.

Why could I not put 0 VP on all non-Victory cards and have them be a X-Victory hybrid? Why can I not extrapolate the "Victory" type? It doesn't need the subtype Victory in the first place. It is an inconsistency. It would be inconsistent for an "Overgrown Estate" to not be a Victory card. Why do you think I suggested that the name could have been changed to something else in addition to dropping the "Victory" type.

And, to Donald, I agree that it is merely a convention. However, I am of the belief that the convention should be a straight rule, not one to be broken. If it is to be broken, not in this way by the Overgrown Estate. A Victory card should have something to do with VP's, yet this one does not. It defeats the purpose of the subtype Victory if it has nothing relevant to VP's on it.

I don't understand why you're ignoring the functional ramifications, which is the question I put to you in my initial reply.

Why can't you make everything an X-Victory hybrid worth 0 VP?  Because then Scout is a triple-Laboratory (an unnecessary buff for what is already a power card!  Zing!).

Card types aren't flavor.

Young Nick - the basic types (Action, Treasure, Victory) all mean basic things about the cards they're on.  An Action uses up an Action, a Treasure is played during your buy phase, and a Victory is of importance at the end of the game.  Different cards reference these types - Adventurer seeks Treasures, Scout draws Victory cards.  If you want a card to perform something during your turn, it has to be Action or Treasure - if you want to limit how much it can be played, make it Action, if you want to be able to just throw an infinite amount down, make it Treasure.  So Nobles and Harem, while playable, also give VP, so they're combo-types.

As for Overgrown Estate - the thought process was to have a card that cannot be played - a card that just sits in your deck.  It also does not yield any VP.  But we don't have a card type for that.  So make it a Victory - now it can interact with Scout and Silk Road, but that's ok.

[rinkworks]

Cards that care about whether other cards are Victory cards or not:

* Bureaucrat
* Scout
* Tribute
* Transmute
* Fortune Teller
* Jester
* Crossroads
* Silk Road
* unknown number of Dark Ages cards

(Also Ironworks, Talisman, Treasury, Trade Route, Hoard, Horn of Plenty, and Haggler, but those can't combo with Overgrown Estate, so never mind.)

The big one here is "unknown number of Dark Ages cards."  Overgrown Estate was specifically designed to work with Dark Ages, so I would be astonished if there weren't several Dark Ages cards that care about the fact that the Shelters are exactly what they are, including Overgrown Estate having the Victory card type.

[engineer]

Cards that care about whether other cards are Victory cards or not:

* Bureaucrat
* Scout
* Tribute
* Transmute
* Fortune Teller
* Jester
* Crossroads
* Silk Road
* unknown number of Dark Ages cards

(Also Ironworks, Talisman, Treasury, Trade Route, Hoard, Horn of Plenty, and Haggler, but those can't combo with Overgrown Estate, so never mind.)

The big one here is "unknown number of Dark Ages cards."  Overgrown Estate was specifically designed to work with Dark Ages, so I would be astonished if there weren't several Dark Ages cards that care about the fact that the Shelters are exactly what they are, including Overgrown Estate having the Victory card type.

I'm not sure about that...keep in mind that shelters won't be used in every game with a DA card in it.  No prosperity cards directly reference plats or colonies, because any prosperity card might be in a game that doesn't include the plats/colonies.

I would be surprised if there was no reference to shelters on some DA cards (why have the type if it's never used), but  Donald seems pretty careful about ensuring that any card could be useful in any kingdom, so I doubt the presence of shelters will have a significant effect on a card's worth.

[GendoIkari]

As for Overgrown Estate - the thought process was to have a card that cannot be played - a card that just sits in your deck.  It also does not yield any VP.  But we don't have a card type for that.  So make it a Victory - now it can interact with Scout and Silk Road, but that's ok.

All this discussion makes me think... Curse really could just be type "Victory." I get that it's worse for flavor, which I'm sure is why it was done that way. But functionally; curses are identical to the basic victory cards. Just another card that you can't play on your turn, that counts towards your score at the end of the game, and that is available to buy in every game.

But, as we all know, it would completely break the game if it Curse were a Victory card, because Scout is too powerful as it is!


Ok, seriously... Crossroads, Tribute, Scout, Bureaucrat, Transmute, Silk Road, and Hoard would all get a little better. Talisman, and Haggler would technically get worse, though not in a noticeable way.

[GendoIkari]

Cards that care about whether other cards are Victory cards or not:

* Bureaucrat
* Scout
* Tribute
* Transmute
* Fortune Teller
* Jester
* Crossroads
* Silk Road
* unknown number of Dark Ages cards

(Also Ironworks, Talisman, Treasury, Trade Route, Hoard, Horn of Plenty, and Haggler, but those can't combo with Overgrown Estate, so never mind.)

The big one here is "unknown number of Dark Ages cards."  Overgrown Estate was specifically designed to work with Dark Ages, so I would be astonished if there weren't several Dark Ages cards that care about the fact that the Shelters are exactly what they are, including Overgrown Estate having the Victory card type.

I'm not sure about that...keep in mind that shelters won't be used in every game with a DA card in it.  No prosperity cards directly reference plats or colonies, because any prosperity card might be in a game that doesn't include the plats/colonies.

I would be surprised if there was no reference to shelters on some DA cards (why have the type if it's never used), but  Donald seems pretty careful about ensuring that any card could be useful in any kingdom, so I doubt the presence of shelters will have a significant effect on a card's worth.

Apprentice references Potions, which might not be in use just because Apprentice is in use. But your point still stands. Any card that references Shelter type (and I hope there will be some!) must work without Shelters around. Perhaps a card that counts the number of different types among some revealed cards?

[rinkworks]

Overgrown Estate was specifically designed to work with Dark Ages, so I would be astonished if there weren't several Dark Ages cards that care about the fact that the Shelters are exactly what they are, including Overgrown Estate having the Victory card type.

I'm not sure about that...keep in mind that shelters won't be used in every game with a DA card in it.  No prosperity cards directly reference plats or colonies, because any prosperity card might be in a game that doesn't include the plats/colonies.

I would be surprised if there was no reference to shelters on some DA cards (why have the type if it's never used), but  Donald seems pretty careful about ensuring that any card could be useful in any kingdom, so I doubt the presence of shelters will have a significant effect on a card's worth.

I'm not saying there will be cards that reference Shelters -- I'm saying I suspect there will be cards that reference Victory cards, or which will in some other way behave differently due to the fact that Overgrown Estate has the Victory type.  (I agree with you that probably none of the other cards will directly reference Shelters.)

The comparison to Prosperity is apt:  no, no cards specifically reference Platinum or Colony, but the cards in that set were designed with Platinum and Colony and the higher-income decks those cards require in mind.  Which is not to say they don't work in non-Colony games, because they absolutely do.  Similarly, obviously Dark Ages cards will work without Shelters, but it's silly to think they weren't designed with Shelters in mind.

[werothegreat]

As for Overgrown Estate - the thought process was to have a card that cannot be played - a card that just sits in your deck.  It also does not yield any VP.  But we don't have a card type for that.  So make it a Victory - now it can interact with Scout and Silk Road, but that's ok.

All this discussion makes me think... Curse really could just be type "Victory." I get that it's worse for flavor, which I'm sure is why it was done that way. But functionally; curses are identical to the basic victory cards. Just another card that you can't play on your turn, that counts towards your score at the end of the game, and that is available to buy in every game.

But, as we all know, it would completely break the game if it Curse were a Victory card, because Scout is too powerful as it is!


Ok, seriously... Crossroads, Tribute, Scout, Bureaucrat, Transmute, Silk Road, and Hoard would all get a little better. Talisman, and Haggler would technically get worse, though not in a noticeable way.

Wuh... buh... why would you buy a Curse with Talisman in play?

[WanderingWinder]

As for Overgrown Estate - the thought process was to have a card that cannot be played - a card that just sits in your deck.  It also does not yield any VP.  But we don't have a card type for that.  So make it a Victory - now it can interact with Scout and Silk Road, but that's ok.

All this discussion makes me think... Curse really could just be type "Victory." I get that it's worse for flavor, which I'm sure is why it was done that way. But functionally; curses are identical to the basic victory cards. Just another card that you can't play on your turn, that counts towards your score at the end of the game, and that is available to buy in every game.

But, as we all know, it would completely break the game if it Curse were a Victory card, because Scout is too powerful as it is!


Ok, seriously... Crossroads, Tribute, Scout, Bureaucrat, Transmute, Silk Road, and Hoard would all get a little better. Talisman, and Haggler would technically get worse, though not in a noticeable way.

Wuh... buh... why would you buy a Curse with Talisman in play?

To pile out the curses, leading to a three pile ending where you win.

[chwhite]

As for Overgrown Estate - the thought process was to have a card that cannot be played - a card that just sits in your deck.  It also does not yield any VP.  But we don't have a card type for that.  So make it a Victory - now it can interact with Scout and Silk Road, but that's ok.

All this discussion makes me think... Curse really could just be type "Victory." I get that it's worse for flavor, which I'm sure is why it was done that way. But functionally; curses are identical to the basic victory cards. Just another card that you can't play on your turn, that counts towards your score at the end of the game, and that is available to buy in every game.

But, as we all know, it would completely break the game if it Curse were a Victory card, because Scout is too powerful as it is!


Ok, seriously... Crossroads, Tribute, Scout, Bureaucrat, Transmute, Silk Road, and Hoard would all get a little better. Talisman, and Haggler would technically get worse, though not in a noticeable way.

Wuh... buh... why would you buy a Curse with Talisman in play?

Run out the third pile when you're ahead.  Or you're boosting your Gardens to the next level, which gives you more points than the Curse takes away.  Or you have a consistent draw-your deck engine that gets all its cash from pumped-up Trade Routes, and those Trade Routes need new fodder- and the Coppers are gone.  Or Goons/Watchtower (where Talisman is irrelevant). 

ed: ninja'd by WW, at least for the most common option

[ftl]

Maybe you have a Watchtower in hand, and you want to buy up lots of curses to trash them immediately so your opponent can't give them to  you with Witch/Mountebank/Hag, etc?

That's why it was "technically worse, but not in a noticeable way". It's technically worse because you have fewer options by one, and you could come up with contrived examples where you'd want that option, though it would be more likely to come up in a puzzle than in a real game.

[werothegreat]

I actually ended up resigning on an iso game relevant to this today - he opened Hunting Party/Chapel, and I opened Amb/Amb.  He was just too fast for me.  I was able to pick up more Grand Markets than he was, but he managed to get an early King's Court, and then he bought a Curse and two Ambs.  It was while he was giving me six Curses that I resigned.

[Young Nick]

I don't understand why you're ignoring the functional ramifications, which is the question I put to you in my initial reply.

Why can't you make everything an X-Victory hybrid worth 0 VP?  Because then Scout is a triple-Laboratory (an unnecessary buff for what is already a power card!  Zing!).

Card types aren't flavor.

I thought it went without say that I was only considering the functional ramifications. What I was saying was that you can't give non-VP-yielding cards "Victory" status because then they are the recipients of unearned interaction with all of the cards you listed in your next post. You say card types aren't flavor. This is exactly my point. It appears to me that "Overgrown Estate" is a Victory card because it makes sense thematically. But it is ignoring the functional ramifications.

Young Nick - the basic types (Action, Treasure, Victory) all mean basic things about the cards they're on.  An Action uses up an Action, a Treasure is played during your buy phase, and a Victory is of importance at the end of the game.  Different cards reference these types - Adventurer seeks Treasures, Scout draws Victory cards.  If you want a card to perform something during your turn, it has to be Action or Treasure - if you want to limit how much it can be played, make it Action, if you want to be able to just throw an infinite amount down, make it Treasure.  So Nobles and Harem, while playable, also give VP, so they're combo-types.

As for Overgrown Estate - the thought process was to have a card that cannot be played - a card that just sits in your deck.  It also does not yield any VP.  But we don't have a card type for that.  So make it a Victory - now it can interact with Scout and Silk Road, but that's ok.

Yet, we do have a card that cannot be played and does not yield VP. Hovel does that. It is a reaction, yes, but it cannot be played. So there is precedent. When I saw the cards, I figured Shelters were cards that could not be played on their own. Maybe this was a wrong assumption, and judging by DXV's comments, it probably was. However, I think it is a valid path to go down, and I think it would make more sense functionally to have Shelters be unplayable in themselves, and as a result leave of the "Victory" on Overgrown Estate.

Is it a big deal? Absolutely not. However, the previews featured some cards that I do not think were worded as clearly as the currently available cards are. I have been known to praise DXV, especially to family and friends, for how perfect the wording on the cards are and how rarely is a FAQ actually necessary. With Overgrown Estate, and some other DA cards, I don't care for the wording as much. It's not meant to be an insult, just a contradictory opinion.

[ftl]

Well, it does reinforce that a Victory card is a Victory card because it says it is, and for no other reason. It's why Curse cards aren't Victory cards which give negative VP.

Also, stuff like Gardens or Silk Road or Duke or Feodum can also be worth 0 VP at times and they're still victory cards when they're worth 0 VP.

...but, what type DO you think that Overgrown Estate should have been? It's not an action or treasure because you can't play it. It's not a reaction because it doesn't react to anything, unlike Hovel which reacts to you buying a victory card. Victory makes sense - it's a card that sits in your deck and doesn't do anything.

[LastFootnote]

...but, what type DO you think that Overgrown Estate should have been? It's not an action or treasure because you can't play it. It's not a reaction because it doesn't react to anything, unlike Hovel which reacts to you buying a victory card. Victory makes sense - it's a card that sits in your deck and doesn't do anything.

It easily could have just been a pure Shelter-type card. That being said, I like the fact that it's a Victory card.

[shMerker]

I dunno if this helps but all of the single-type victory cards are land of some kind. Scouts search the surrounding land and help you traverse it more quickly. Crossroads offer a similar help with traversal. Silk roads are valuable because of the places the connect to. An overgrown estate is nearly worthless land because of it's disrepair, but it's still land.

[Donald X.]

It appears to me that "Overgrown Estate" is a Victory card because it makes sense thematically. But it is ignoring the functional ramifications.

In fact it being a victory card is the opposite of ignoring the functional ramifications. It is specifically taking into account the functional ramifications. It is valuable, functionally, that it is a victory card.

[ConMan]

It appears to me that "Overgrown Estate" is a Victory card because it makes sense thematically. But it is ignoring the functional ramifications.

In fact it being a victory card is the opposite of ignoring the functional ramifications. It is specifically taking into account the functional ramifications. It is valuable, functionally, that it is a victory card.

Nuts. I was all ready to come in an point out that if there's nothing that we've learned from however many years of Dominion, it's that Donald always considers the functional ramifications. Even a cursory glance at the Secret Histories shows that. Overgrown Estate is a Victory card because you have determined that, all things considered, it works best in the game as such.

[GendoIkari]

Apprentice references Potions, which might not be in use just because Apprentice is in use. But your point still stands. Any card that references Shelter type (and I hope there will be some!) must work without Shelters around. Perhaps a card that counts the number of different types among some revealed cards?

And Vagrant has given us the answer we've all been waiting for!

[rinkworks]

Overgrown Estate was specifically designed to work with Dark Ages, so I would be astonished if there weren't several Dark Ages cards that care about the fact that the Shelters are exactly what they are, including Overgrown Estate having the Victory card type.

I'm not sure about that...keep in mind that shelters won't be used in every game with a DA card in it.

I'm not saying there will be cards that reference Shelters -- I'm saying I suspect there will be cards that reference Victory cards, or which will in some other way behave differently due to the fact that Overgrown Estate has the Victory type.  (I agree with you that probably none of the other cards will directly reference Shelters.)

Vagrant proves me wrong on the parenthetical, but Vagrant works when Shelters aren't around.

But a quick survey of the issue of Overgrown Estate being a Victory card.  Dark Ages has added two more cards that care about the Victory type.  OE having that Victory type is a boon if you're using...

* Ironmonger: Revealing OE gives you +1 Card instead of nothing.
* Rebuild: Can't convert OE into a Duchy, which would be nice, but you can at least convert it to a regular Estate and get OE's on-trash benefit.  With Gardens/SR/Feodum/Island/GH/Tunnel, you're better off still.

Although Vagrant also cares about Victory cards, it cares about Shelters equally, and so in this case OE's Victory type is not an advantage.

[GendoIkari]

Hovel becomes the second card which gives no bonus to an opponents tribute. And it's a dual type to boot.

Fun fact; my Ironmonger hit Hovel last week in a game. 

[Roadrunner7671]

Hovel becomes the second card which gives no bonus to an opponents tribute. And it's a dual type to boot.

Fun fact; my Ironmonger hit Hovel last week in a game. 

Dude you must be soooooo bored

[Seprix]

GendoIkari didn't even post +2 Actions. A disappointment.