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Author Topic: Spoils Gainers  (Read 5891 times)

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Loschmidt

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Spoils Gainers
« on: August 10, 2012, 12:11:26 am »
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So Pillage nets you a Spoils. DXV admitted that there are two other cards that net you Spoils.

What are they?

Based on the themes of the set I'd be willing to bet there's a trashing attack.

How much design space is left in the trashing attack front? Many times we've asked this, and there have been a lot of trashing attack fan cards. Donald has an article somewhere on why trashing attacks are hard to make.....can't seem to find it. You know the one anyway. In summary trashing attacks are swingy and/or weak. I'm going to take a punt on a anti-Lookout style trasher. Look at the top 3 cards of your opponents deck, trash 1. Except it's a one shot al la Pillager and it nets you Spoils.

A non-attack Spoils gainer would be interesting too. Given Spoils is a pretty cool idea.

Thoughts?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2012, 12:21:11 am »
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Well, you're really asking two (or three) questions.

What will the other two Spoils-gainers be? I'm expecting one to be a Looter. I'm inclined to agree that the other one may be a non-attack.

What possible variations of trashing attacks remain? Quite a few, but they are difficult to balance. My custom expansion has such a card. It would be gauche to post it outside of the variants forum, but it's a combination discarder/trasher, as in each opponent trashes a card from his hand. It would not surprise me if an official card used this combination.

That being said, given that we have so many on-trash benefits in this set, any trashing attack is bound to be severely weakened when playing with other Dark Ages cards. It wouldn't shock me if the set didn't contain any trashing attacks.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2012, 12:42:56 am »
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That being said, given that we have so many on-trash benefits in this set, any trashing attack is bound to be severely weakened when playing with other Dark Ages cards. It wouldn't shock me if the set didn't contain any trashing attacks.

Thats why I think its a one-shot <i>directed</i> trashing attack. Pillager is our first directed discard, nothing is off the table anymore.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 12:57:12 am »
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That being said, given that we have so many on-trash benefits in this set, any trashing attack is bound to be severely weakened when playing with other Dark Ages cards. It wouldn't shock me if the set didn't contain any trashing attacks.

Thats why I think its a one-shot <i>directed</i> trashing attack. Pillager is our first directed discard, nothing is off the table anymore.

Discarded discard is already super strong, but it's a 1-shot, so OK.  I really hope that there isn't directed trashing, or if there is, that there is some clever way to balance it.  Just trashing 1/3 is way too powerful, especially late game, but it can still be super swingy depending on what you find.  I play it and trash your Colony, you play it and trash my Copper?  OK?  ::)
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 12:58:08 am »
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That being said, given that we have so many on-trash benefits in this set, any trashing attack is bound to be severely weakened when playing with other Dark Ages cards. It wouldn't shock me if the set didn't contain any trashing attacks.

Thats why I think its a one-shot <i>directed</i> trashing attack. Pillager is our first directed discard, nothing is off the table anymore.

But, targeted trashing seems much, much more powerful than targeted discard. Since you get Spoils, why wouldn't the opponent be able to choose what card to trash? At 5 cost and terminal, would such an attack be so bad. Okay, with many DA cards, it is weaker, but outside DA, suck an attack would be sick to play. It would be sort of like Masquerade. Combine it with a discarder like Militia or Goons, and you can really hurt your opponent.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 01:26:37 am »
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But, targeted trashing seems much, much more powerful than targeted discard. Since you get Spoils, why wouldn't the opponent be able to choose what card to trash? At 5 cost and terminal, would such an attack be so bad. Okay, with many DA cards, it is weaker, but outside DA, suck an attack would be sick to play. It would be sort of like Masquerade. Combine it with a discarder like Militia or Goons, and you can really hurt your opponent.

I suppose we've been over this before, there are a lot of issues with trashing attacks. I just think that it fits in with the theme of the set. And we're yet to see a true trashing attack; Swindler and Saboteur are more like remodelling attacks. Oh well I trust DXV to come up with a balanced trasher. He's had some time now to nut it out.

But what about other possibilities for Spoils gainers. Do you think they're mild attacks where the Spoils is the main benefit, or more powerful one-shots like Pillager? Donald did mention that at least one of them sticks around.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 01:34:45 am »
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If there is any trashing attack, I would expect it to give the attacked player some element of choice.  Examples:

- Each other player reveals 3 cards from the top of their deck and chooses 1 to trash.

- Each other player trashes a card from their hand and draws a card.

- Each other player reveals the top card of their deck.  He may trash that card; if he does not, he gains a Curse and either puts the card back on top of the deck or discards it, your choice.
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PSGarak

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 01:34:58 am »
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Let's think thematically for a second. What sort of actions results in spoils? Pillaging and looting, clearly. Looting has been mentioned above, and I think it need not be an attack--possibly even some interaction with ruins or shelter or something. It sounds to me like it would relate to trashing, but from your own hand, not someone else's.

So what other sort of thing can you do, that results in gain you would call spoils? Economic and property crime, like theft. Hm... that would actually be a pretty interesting Thief variant: If you trash a treasure, you gain a Spoils or two. Early game, thin your opponents' decks in return for some limited-use high-impact acceleration. I like it. Mid-late game, similar to real Thief but probably better.

So what else is associated with Spoils... conquest and war, obviously, but that's strongly overlapping with Pillage already. How about, spoils are associated with claiming new territory. Imagine a Hoard-like card, cheaper and maybe gaining 2 at a time. Awkward card, for sure, but doable.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 01:45:14 am »
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You know, I think one card will be called Plunder, since when you Plunder, you get spoils. However, I have no idea what it would do.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 01:52:38 am »
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So what other sort of thing can you do, that results in gain you would call spoils? Economic and property crime, like theft. Hm... that would actually be a pretty interesting Thief variant: If you trash a treasure, you gain a Spoils or two. Early game, thin your opponents' decks in return for some limited-use high-impact acceleration. I like it. Mid-late game, similar to real Thief but probably better.

That is a brilliant idea! A really neat way to improve thieving. Whatever you trash from their deck turns into a Spoils in yours.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 02:00:26 am »
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Its just occured to me how good Spoils are for engines. You want expensive engine pieces but you don't want to have money around in the long run, this gives you good cash right now and then dissapears. There is a lot of potential for using Pillager (or preferably a $4 as yet to be announced Spoils gainer) as a starting platform for your favourite engine.
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ConMan

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 02:07:34 am »
+1

What about something like this?

Archaeologist

Trash a Ruins from your hand. Gain a Spoils, putting it in your hand.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 02:12:39 am »
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Its just occured to me how good Spoils are for engines. You want expensive engine pieces but you don't want to have money around in the long run, this gives you good cash right now and then dissapears. There is a lot of potential for using Pillager (or preferably a $4 as yet to be announced Spoils gainer) as a starting platform for your favourite engine.

Pillage/Spoils

My first thought -- awesome wordplay.  The attack doesn't benefit your current turn.  In that, it is like Sea Hag and Saboteur.  Hag is amazing, Sab is not so much.  Pillage costs $5 like Sab.  But the attack is likely to hurt a LOT, especially after the early game.  No wonder it's a one-shot.

The Spoils are a nice little prize too.  That they are also one-shot... hm.  The wording on the card means that Pillage is throneable/KC-able, giving you much more Spoils than usual.

Since everything about Pillage and Spoils disappears after use, it might be a very nice way to kickstart a treasureless deck.  Spoils can provide the cash you need for your first Grand Market or Goons, and then you're off to the races.  This is further facilitated by Squire, in that Squire can get you to Pillage without treasure as well!

8)
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tlloyd

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 02:32:22 am »
+2

Attack-of-all-Trades
Action-Attack ($4)
"Each other player draws from his deck until he has six cards in hand, reveals two of his choice, then discards one of your choice and returns the other to his deck. Each other player trashes one card from his hand and gains a curse or a copper, your choice."
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Loschmidt

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 02:47:54 am »
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Its just occured to me how good Spoils are for engines. You want expensive engine pieces but you don't want to have money around in the long run, this gives you good cash right now and then dissapears. There is a lot of potential for using Pillager (or preferably a $4 as yet to be announced Spoils gainer) as a starting platform for your favourite engine.

Pillage/Spoils

My first thought -- awesome wordplay.  The attack doesn't benefit your current turn.  In that, it is like Sea Hag and Saboteur.  Hag is amazing, Sab is not so much.  Pillage costs $5 like Sab.  But the attack is likely to hurt a LOT, especially after the early game.  No wonder it's a one-shot.

The Spoils are a nice little prize too.  That they are also one-shot... hm.  The wording on the card means that Pillage is throneable/KC-able, giving you much more Spoils than usual.

Since everything about Pillage and Spoils disappears after use, it might be a very nice way to kickstart a treasureless deck.  Spoils can provide the cash you need for your first Grand Market or Goons, and then you're off to the races.  This is further facilitated by Squire, in that Squire can get you to Pillage without treasure as well!

8)

I like your thinking :P
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Loschmidt

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Re: Spoils Gainers
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 02:50:08 am »
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What about something like this?

Archaeologist

Trash a Ruins from your hand. Gain a Spoils, putting it in your hand.

There's no guarantee a looter is out. How about;

  ==Archaeologist==

All other players gain a Ruins.
Trash a Ruins from your hand. If you do gain a Spoils.

Action - Attack - Looter
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