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[Axxle]

L - 1 with morgrim expressing willingness = bad news bears...

Please go after O next, not Insomniac.

No one answered my arg that fakeclaiming doc is bad  scum play with multiple scum factions

tell me one better fakeclaim eHunt.  Any at all.

Vig

I'd kill that 5 times faster as scum than I'd kill the doc.

[O]

L - 1 with morgrim expressing willingness = bad news bears...

Please go after O next, not Insomniac.

No one answered my arg that fakeclaiming doc is bad  scum play with multiple scum factions

tell me one better fakeclaim eHunt.  Any at all.

Vig

easily confirmable towards endgame, generally makes people suspicious because it's a killing role, Scum would want to kill you if they're opposing scumteam. next.

oh, and also a vig wouldn't need to counterclaim, they could just vig you.

[ehunt]

Gotta go and can't keep up on phone. Wish Frisk was here to talk sense into people. I've voiced all my reads I think. Don't let O trick you twice.

Jesus christ stop trying to give them WIFOM i'm not your goddamn scumbuddy.

And I'm not tricking anyone, the argument against you is solid.

No WIFOM. You tricked them today but they'll see it plain tomorrow.

[O]

Gotta go and can't keep up on phone. Wish Frisk was here to talk sense into people. I've voiced all my reads I think. Don't let O trick you twice.

Jesus christ stop trying to give them WIFOM i'm not your goddamn scumbuddy.

And I'm not tricking anyone, the argument against you is solid.

No WIFOM. You tricked them today but they'll see it plain tomorrow.

who did I trick? why is Axxle not suspicious in this tricking?

[Axxle]

L - 1 with morgrim expressing willingness = bad news bears...

Please go after O next, not Insomniac.

No one answered my arg that fakeclaiming doc is bad  scum play with multiple scum factions

tell me one better fakeclaim eHunt.  Any at all.

Vig

easily confirmable towards endgame, generally makes people suspicious because it's a killing role, Scum would want to kill you if they're opposing scumteam. next.

oh, and also a vig wouldn't need to counterclaim, they could just vig you.

There have been so many fake vig claims on this forum that I might just policy lynch the next one.

[O]

Joth didn't get away with it, Dsell only got away with it because they suspected he was SK and they needed to lynch mafia.

[ehunt]

 already  laid out case on O which he knows, he's asking me to repeat so it gets buried in noise while I can only phone post.

[ehunt]

Axxle may be scummy but the only confidence I have is O. Read all my posts carefully.

[Axxle]

already  laid out case on O which he knows, he's asking me to repeat so it gets buried in noise while I can only phone post.

I'll dig it up

[Galzria]

L - 1 with morgrim expressing willingness = bad news bears...

Please go after O next, not Insomniac.

No one answered my arg that fakeclaiming doc is bad  scum play with multiple scum factions

I agree man, that's why I keep saying these aren't fakeclaims. #745 and Galz in #709 actually makes this argument but never applies it to ehunt for some reason.

Because those arguments don't apply to eHunt's claim. They apply to a counterclaim, as scum, when so many better routes were available. The only reason to essentially COUNTERCLAIM the same role in such a role-rich game (and that is essentially what Insomniacs claim must be viewed as) is because you're town, telling the truth. Do you REALLY believe scum would counterclaim the same role just to get eHunt lynched? LOL!

eHunt was headed towards a lynch, he had to claim something eventually.  As town he would've waited, not wanting to out himself. As scum he would claim early to draw counterclaims. I absolutely think that eHunt = scum > two truthful doctor claims, and for scum Insomniac to make that claim would've been idiotic.

[Axxle]

I am traveling today, am not back till next Tuesday, and won't have time for another big computer post till then. I may be able to phone post more, but sniping phone post fights without the ability to look up references are annoying, especially when your old posts are being willfully misrepresented or ignored and you can't look them up. In particular I'm unlikely to be very active early Day 2 of this game.

I'm very happy with my O wagon. He made a case on me that seemed unserious (the you said hunting three times in a row case). I said that the "hunting hunting hunting" phrase was obviously light-hearted. He ignored that, then said why didn't you answer my hunting hunting hunting argument? I repeated my answer. He said that OF COURSE this wasn't why he was voting for me, he was just calling out the phrase as being "stupid." I said that he was being contradictory; instead of answering my argument, he called it desperate "regardless of alignment" (why did he say that?). I think he's scared cause he knows he made a mistake, so he acts overwhelmingly dismissive of the arguments in the hope that if you say something with strong enough language, it becomes true.

Many complaints about my claim. Look, I was going to get one or two more chances to make a computer post before deadline. Realistically without my claim there was no chance of someone getting lynched aside from me, at least two people who weren't voting for me had expressed willingness, and there's still Morgrim lurking to quickhammer. At best I could have waited and then phone posted my claim at L - 1 resulting in a no lynch (if no accident happened). We can argue about Mafia strategy till we're blue in the fact but at the end of the day it's a distraction from scumhunting. If you think my claim is FALSE, say that. If you just think it's bad strategy, eh, try not to aggressively push a wagon on the doctor over nothing next time.

Finally, yes, the doctor role is part of why I was lurking (in particular it's why I wasn't pushing wagons), although I also meant it when I said I was genuinely less obsessed with this game than I was with MVI (more obsessed now, but still not at MVI levels of obsession).

I can't say I understand the case against Insomniac. I will do some reading on it now then decide whether to vote him (to avoid no lynch) or keep my vote on O (and hope somebody comes around). Would strongly prefer the latter.

You were acting scummy as **** and you know that. OMGUSes everywhere, half-baked logic. I see you as incredibly calm and clearheaded under pressure, in MV.

but unvote anyways. and you really really dont want to wagon me ehunt.

Again, observe that O doesn't answer my arguments and instead asserts that things are obvious (I was scummy as **** and I know it). This is an extremely effective technique for dismissing arguments you can't answer in a game with this much distraction and noise, because people who are only skimming will believe that the extremeness in the tone is reflective of an extremeness in reality which isn't there. I would ask everyone to read my argument with O last night carefully, starting from the post where O votes for me. Ask yourself: why is O voting for ehunt? What evidence is he providing? Which of his arguments does he think are serious and which do he think are "of course" unserious? I claim you will not be able to formulate a coherent narrative of his play.

I have said several times that OMGUS is not a scumtell and I have not been rebutted. I think that OMGUS is actively a good thing. It is absolutely essential that a townie point out the scum on a misleading wagon against him. All a dead townie has is his voice. If I'm mislynched or NKed and haven't specifically pointed to who on my wagon is scum, then when it comes time to figure out who the scum is, misleading scum will do "statistical analysis" or cite old games or whatever they need to do and argue that the seventh vote or the voter with the least post count or the voter who was on the most or fewest other wagons is scummy, and not enough people will go back and check and notice, hey, O was the one voting ehunt without evidence and with contradictory posts. Now that I've made lots of noise over O, at least something good will come out of my impending nightkill. That is why if you are a townie you should always call out scummy arguments on you.

[O]

I am traveling today, am not back till next Tuesday, and won't have time for another big computer post till then. I may be able to phone post more, but sniping phone post fights without the ability to look up references are annoying, especially when your old posts are being willfully misrepresented or ignored and you can't look them up. In particular I'm unlikely to be very active early Day 2 of this game.

I'm very happy with my O wagon. He made a case on me that seemed unserious (the you said hunting three times in a row case). I said that the "hunting hunting hunting" phrase was obviously light-hearted. He ignored that, then said why didn't you answer my hunting hunting hunting argument? I repeated my answer. He said that OF COURSE this wasn't why he was voting for me, he was just calling out the phrase as being "stupid." I said that he was being contradictory; instead of answering my argument, he called it desperate "regardless of alignment" (why did he say that?). I think he's scared cause he knows he made a mistake, so he acts overwhelmingly dismissive of the arguments in the hope that if you say something with strong enough language, it becomes true.

Many complaints about my claim. Look, I was going to get one or two more chances to make a computer post before deadline. Realistically without my claim there was no chance of someone getting lynched aside from me, at least two people who weren't voting for me had expressed willingness, and there's still Morgrim lurking to quickhammer. At best I could have waited and then phone posted my claim at L - 1 resulting in a no lynch (if no accident happened). We can argue about Mafia strategy till we're blue in the fact but at the end of the day it's a distraction from scumhunting. If you think my claim is FALSE, say that. If you just think it's bad strategy, eh, try not to aggressively push a wagon on the doctor over nothing next time.

Finally, yes, the doctor role is part of why I was lurking (in particular it's why I wasn't pushing wagons), although I also meant it when I said I was genuinely less obsessed with this game than I was with MVI (more obsessed now, but still not at MVI levels of obsession).

I can't say I understand the case against Insomniac. I will do some reading on it now then decide whether to vote him (to avoid no lynch) or keep my vote on O (and hope somebody comes around). Would strongly prefer the latter.

Again, observe that O doesn't answer my arguments and instead asserts that things are obvious (I was scummy as **** and I know it). This is an extremely effective technique for dismissing arguments you can't answer in a game with this much distraction and noise, because people who are only skimming will believe that the extremeness in the tone is reflective of an extremeness in reality which isn't there. I would ask everyone to read my argument with O last night carefully, starting from the post where O votes for me. Ask yourself: why is O voting for ehunt? What evidence is he providing? Which of his arguments does he think are serious and which do he think are "of course" unserious? I claim you will not be able to formulate a coherent narrative of his play.

I have said several times that OMGUS is not a scumtell and I have not been rebutted. I think that OMGUS is actively a good thing. It is absolutely essential that a townie point out the scum on a misleading wagon against him. All a dead townie has is his voice. If I'm mislynched or NKed and haven't specifically pointed to who on my wagon is scum, then when it comes time to figure out who the scum is, misleading scum will do "statistical analysis" or cite old games or whatever they need to do and argue that the seventh vote or the voter with the least post count or the voter who was on the most or fewest other wagons is scummy, and not enough people will go back and check and notice, hey, O was the one voting ehunt without evidence and with contradictory posts. Now that I've made lots of noise over O, at least something good will come out of my impending nightkill. That is why if you are a townie you should always call out scummy arguments on you.

Two quick responses:
1. note that including the card name is an important part of my claim (see "named townie" on mafiascum wiki for theory).
2. i agree that doctor is a good fakeclaim if there's one scumfaction. with multiple scumfactions it doesn't matter,  claimants are going to get nightkilled. a scumfaction will say, ok, either ehunt is telling the truth, or he's lying in which case he's on the other scumfaction. either way he's a good kill. i'm very unlikely to survive the night.

Quick response to O quoting my long post: I answered that argument a long time ago, when you made it the first time. My long post was the first post in many hours and I was trying to make conversation happen in a dead room, even though I didn't have much to say on most of the folks. The people I said were very town were people I felt were very town and I am not going to lie about my positions. I still feel that way about all of them except for Galzria, and even Galzria I still have a somewhat town read on.

Again, people, read O's fight with me last night in order, starting with where he votes me for saying "morgrim hunting hunting hunting." Don't let him mislead you, especially after I am gone. He is bringing up old arguments (and not quoting my responses to them) because he needs to create as much misinformation and noise as possible for when people go back over my case against him.

I think my O case is better than the Insomniac case, so not moving my vote. Will try to phone check. Adios for now.

PPE: GOD DAMNIT AXXLE

[shraeye]

L - 1 with morgrim expressing willingness = bad news bears...

Please go after O next, not Insomniac.

No one answered my arg that fakeclaiming doc is bad  scum play with multiple scum factions

I agree man, that's why I keep saying these aren't fakeclaims. #745 and Galz in #709 actually makes this argument but never applies it to ehunt for some reason.

tell me one better fakeclaim shraeye.  Any at all.

I don't know man, I'm not an experienced player in mafia.  Apparently it is standard practice to fakeclaim doctor, and I honestly didn't know that.  It seems that whatever answer I give you'll say that you'd kill them 5 times faster than you'd kill the doc, but you are also trying as hard as you can to kill the doc.  Are you telling me that you would have been trying as harder as you can to kill a different fakeclaim?  What if the mafia doesn't claim?  What if they claim VT?  With ehunt having to claim a specific card, a 10 Wands claim is just as tough as a 6 Wands claim.

[angrybirds]

i'll join shraeye and vote eevee

yes school is starting, but i'll try to post more

[ehunt]

The case is our fight from last night, not what O and Axxle block quoted.

[Axxle]

i'll join shraeye and vote eevee

yes school is starting, but i'll try to post more

You should sheep your brother instead.

[ehunt]

All theory arguments assuming only one scumfaction irrelevant. O knows this and is misleading. He thinks i'm the other scum faction from him which will vindicate him, but in fact I am town and vote for him as soon as you see it.

[O]

I want to remark on the argument that morgrim-hunting-hunting is a scumtell. I think that morgrim-hunting-hunting-hunting is a stronger scumtell.

[annoying f.ds mafia history]
Robz, I don't think you Morgrim-hunting-hunted in MVI. You defended Morgrim (even though he was town and you were scum), but I don't recall you FoS'ing or voting for anyone who voted for him on the basis of that alone. Maybe I am wrong. Grujah is the only one I remember Morgrim-hunting-hunting, which was a little unfair since Morgrim's townitude was mod-confirmed to Grujah in that game.
[/annoying f.ds mafia history]

I do agree that Morgrim-hunting-hunting suffers from the same problem as Morgrim-hunting (it's "too easy.") I don't agree that this gives Morgrim-hunters a blank check. I also think that Frisk's insistence that his Morgrim-hunting was pure RVS when backing away from it was independently scummy, regardless of your position on Morgrim-hunting in the abstract.

602 galzria doesn't post much therefore galzria is good
606 ehunt doesn't post much therefore ehunt is bad

Also missing that I've been defending axxle for a lot longer than a day.

It's your defense of Axxle that makes you scummy more than anything.

And yeah, I noted yesterday that I had that "holy expletive" moment when I realized you were in the game. Did you just happen to forget that post of mine?

Before you said the axxle defense was scummy because I did it at the last minute. Now you say the defense qua the defense is scummy. I'm not going to debate somebody who shifts his arguments around instead of listening and acknowledging when he's wrong. It's not my fault that you didn't notice my earlier posts defending axxle.

602 galzria doesn't post much therefore galzria is good
606 ehunt doesn't post much therefore ehunt is bad

Also missing that I've been defending axxle for a lot longer than a day.

Robz eevee yuma all seem town, although robz vote on me scummy. Galzria seemed town until his recent inconsistency. Volt i'm not sure on. Scummiest on wagon is still probably O.

vote: O

O's case on me scummiest (ehunt used the word hunting three times in a row, therefore i'll push his wagon over the 50% line), Galz second scummiest (I've been derailing the terrible axxle wagon for days!).

[ehunt]

Obvi don't be schooled by O selectively quoting my case against him, read argument in order .

[shraeye]

Hey, note to people still alive tomorrow.  Look at the people who pushed hardest for ehunt to be lynched (especially those that justified it not by saying that ehunt was lying, but by saying that Insomniac was telling the truth and THEREFORE ehunt is scum), don't be distracted by people who are pushing suspicion to me, they are just townies looking for scumbuddies and relationships (which according to yuma was RIDICULOUS when I tried to do the same with him and Eevee, who I still suspect...irony), and I hope they realize they are wrong so that they can lynch actual scum one of these times.

[ehunt]

Meant fooled not schooled.

[O]

Obvi don't be schooled by O selectively quoting my case against him, read argument in order .

....are you paranoid?

[ehunt]

Hey, note to people still alive tomorrow.  Look at the people who pushed hardest for ehunt to be lynched (especially those that justified it not by saying that ehunt was lying, but by saying that Insomniac was telling the truth and THEREFORE ehunt is scum), don't be distracted by people who are pushing suspicion to me, they are just townies looking for scumbuddies and relationships (which according to yuma was RIDICULOUS when I tried to do the same with him and Eevee, who I still suspect...irony), and I hope they realize they are wrong so that they can lynch actual scum one of these times.

Agreed, also vote for O.

[ehunt]

Obvi don't be schooled by O selectively quoting my case against him, read argument in order .

....are you paranoid?

No, ten of wands.

[O]

Hey, note to people still alive tomorrow.  Look at the people who pushed hardest for ehunt to be lynched (especially those that justified it not by saying that ehunt was lying, but by saying that Insomniac was telling the truth and THEREFORE ehunt is scum), don't be distracted by people who are pushing suspicion to me, they are just townies looking for scumbuddies and relationships (which according to yuma was RIDICULOUS when I tried to do the same with him and Eevee, who I still suspect...irony), and I hope they realize they are wrong so that they can lynch actual scum one of these times.

Agreed, also vote for O.

except that he referred to me as a townie. bit awkward there.