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[ftl]

I'm pretty sure I talked about werewolves and the sk in an earlier post. I do think saying mafia when I mean scum is a bad habit, I'll try to fix it.

[shraeye]

I'm pretty sure I talked about werewolves and the sk in an earlier post. I do think saying mafia when I mean scum is a bad habit, I'll try to fix it.

No, I'm super really sure you didn't.  I'll let others decide what that means because it could be just a bad habit, but I'm lurking around for whatever "clues" I can get at this stage.

[Morgrim7]

Well, one way to get things going is to start a wagon. Vote: Galzria . Because he's scummy.

Hey shark you changing your play style to cover for the fax your scum this game?

vote sharky

I don't know who to vote for.

[shraeye]

I'm pretty sure I talked about werewolves and the sk in an earlier post. I do think saying mafia when I mean scum is a bad habit, I'll try to fix it.

But also this answer sits with me better than Axxle's dismiss-it-out-of-hand style.  I'm getting a good pro-town vibe from you.  You know who I'm not getting pro-town vibes from at all? Insomniac.

Vote: Insomniac

[yuma]

I'm pretty sure I talked about werewolves and the sk in an earlier post. I do think saying mafia when I mean scum is a bad habit, I'll try to fix it.

But also this answer sits with me better than Axxle's dismiss-it-out-of-hand style.  I'm getting a good pro-town vibe from you.  You know who I'm not getting pro-town vibes from at all? Insomniac.

Vote: Insomniac

You want to list any specific examples or quotes to back up your vote?

Or are you simply voting because he isn't "pro-town" instead of voting for "scummy-behavior"?

Because to me there is very little that is more confusing than trying to describe what pro-town is and match it up to real townies.

[sparky5856]

I'm pretty sure I talked about werewolves and the sk in an earlier post. I do think saying mafia when I mean scum is a bad habit, I'll try to fix it.

But also this answer sits with me better than Axxle's dismiss-it-out-of-hand style.  I'm getting a good pro-town vibe from you.  You know who I'm not getting pro-town vibes from at all? Insomniac.

Vote: Insomniac

You want to list any specific examples or quotes to back up your vote?

Or are you simply voting because he isn't "pro-town" instead of voting for "scummy-behavior"?

Because to me there is very little that is more confusing than trying to describe what pro-town is and match it up to real townies.

He's already expressed his disagreement with one of Insomniac's posts.

Quote from: Insomniac on August 09, 2012, 06:35:18 pm
So I was gonna say that the main benefit of suit claiming might be to discern if we are dealing with one or two scum factions but perhaps the wind will tell us so I'm going to be against suit claiming
where Insomniac posits that suit-claiming will let us know how many factions we are dealing with.  Protip: it won't tell us anything unless either wands/swords or pentacles/cups had no claimers since we have no good way to tell or suspect that a particular suitclaim is scum.  Maybe he and his scummates were planning to claim in the other suits (all WW wands move to Cups, all WW Swords move to Pentacles, as an example) and make it look like there was one less faction.  No real evidence here, only a bit of food for thought.

On another note, I'm getting those pro-town vibes about shraeye. I think he's trying to really look out for the town. Of course, more clarification concerning the above WOULD be nice (particularly because of yuma's last statement; I've seen many townies do very anti-townie things), and failure to provide such could change my mind. I'll see.

[ehunt]

I want to argue that

1. a suit-claim (or another sort of claim) is bad for town.

2. in general, if "x" is some sort of move we could make that's bad for town, it's not that anti-town to ask "hey, is x good for town?" There's plenty of room for theory discussion before anything happens. Arguing forcefully or disingenuously for x in the face of overwhelming arguments that x is bad for town, on the other hand, is very scummy. Now you do have to be careful, e.g., if you're the two-shot bulletproof weak vigilante, you don't want to answer the "is x good for town" question by saying "no! what about the two-shot bulletproof weak vigilante's perspective!" but smart people aren't going to do that.

tl;dr i'm not so suspicious of insomniac even though suit-claiming is a mistake.

[Insomniac]

I never said we should suit claim I was saying a select few claiming could reveal if there are multiple factions. Quite the contrary I oppose suit claiming especially en masse

[ftl]

I'm pretty sure I did talk about sk/ww here.

If 1/4 of the deck consists of scum roles, we're probably in pretty good shape. 2 WW, 2 Mafia... not so bad. It depends on the luck of the draw - if we get  a Mafia Godfather and a cop clears him early, we're sort of screwed, but you can't really plan for that and whatever. Also depends on whatever the heck the Major Arcana are. I look forward to one of them dying just so that we can know what sort of things they have!

We'll see after N1 what the breakdown is. I would expect 2-3 deaths N1, with the potential for more or less. 3 probably means we have SK or vig, 2 probably means no SK, 4 means SK AND Vig of some sort. 1 death probably means no sk, no vig, and a lucky doctor/roleblocker. I think the probabilities work out so at least 1 ww and at least 1 mafia are pretty likely?

Of course, I was sort of wrong because we had modconfirmation of a SK present. So we should expect 3 night deaths with the possibility of fewer if we get lucky with doctors or with mafia/ww/sk targeting the same person.

[shraeye]

Vote: Insomniac

You want to list any specific examples or quotes to back up your vote?

Or are you simply voting because he isn't "pro-town" instead of voting for "scummy-behavior"?

Because to me there is very little that is more confusing than trying to describe what pro-town is and match it up to real townies.

Basically there are a lot of posts from Insomniac (7 when I made my vote) and only 1 which I could mayybe see it as a constructive town post were reasons for taking certain actions were analyzed in a pro-town light.  That seems to me like someone who is trying to avoid lurking while also avoiding really pushing for bringing scum out (even Galz's straightforward posts at least tried to get things started).  At the time of that vote he had the worst ratios of any players in constructive posts/total posts (where constructive votes are subjectively rated by me before tallying).  This feels like something scum would try to do.  His 7 posts were
1. a quick random vote for fun
2. joke/explanation of someones random vote
3. explanation of that joke above
4. joke-feeling vote on brother-claiming yuma
6. a joke/attack at sharkbait for trying to play this game "differently"
7. unvoting joke-vote on yuma

I left off #5 in the middle and that is the post I've previously tried to analyze.  I'm going to try to write more about my feelings on it. 

So I was gonna say that the main benefit of suit claiming might be to discern if we are dealing with one or two scum factions but perhaps the wind will tell us so I'm going to be against suit claiming

First, I've already pointed out how suit-claiming could be gamed by a faction to make it look more like they aren't there.
Second, this really reads to me like he's somewhat upset at cayvie for deciding that it will be good to reveal information to the town, maybe because this would make his faction-trick less possible.
Now new information is given, where Insomniac says this:

I never said we should suit claim I was saying a select few claiming could reveal if there are multiple factions. Quite the contrary I oppose suit claiming especially en masse

Well he had never made a select few/en masse distinction before despite this claim.  Also, he makes it sound like he's now very opposed to something he previously suggested he was for.  Convenient switch now that consensus has come out that town doesn't want suitclaims.

1. in general, if "x" is some sort of move we could make that's bad for town, it's not that anti-town to ask "hey, is x good for town?" There's plenty of room for theory discussion before anything happens.

I agree.  I haven't seen anything that is patently anti-town.  I've just noticed and pointed out some suspicious behaviors.  I've asked the "hey, is x good for town"-sayers to explain their thoughts and positions and so far mostly everything has left me with a more positive feeling about them.  Except for pooossibly Axxle's and definitely Insomniac's

I'm pretty sure I did talk about sk/ww here.

If 1/4 of the deck consists of scum roles, we're probably in pretty good shape. 2 WW, 2 Mafia... not so bad. It depends on the luck of the draw - if we get  a Mafia Godfather and a cop clears him early, we're sort of screwed, but you can't really plan for that and whatever. Also depends on whatever the heck the Major Arcana are. I look forward to one of them dying just so that we can know what sort of things they have!
We'll see after N1 what the breakdown is. I would expect 2-3 deaths N1, with the potential for more or less. 3 probably means we have SK or vig, 2 probably means no SK, 4 means SK AND Vig of some sort. 1 death probably means no sk, no vig, and a lucky doctor/roleblocker. I think the probabilities work out so at least 1 ww and at least 1 mafia are pretty likely?

Yup, that's true.  I was referring to the posts before the one I was quoting, you had made an early mistake and since then you have corrected it.  Since you did that without anybody having called you out yet, I feel it may have been a legitimate mistake.  Axxle is the same way, he had corrected his mistake before it was pointed out.  I think in general I get good vibes from you (by this I mean explaining consequences of various actions in logical ways in order to steer us towards a better decision.)  I get mostly good vibes from Axxle, but a slight negative from how he dismissed my post without much consideration, while you took time to hunt out counterexamples and defend yourself.  That feels more like you care about stopping me from coming to the wrong conclusion and Axxle cares more about getting the suspicion off his back quickly.

[angrybirds]

i would suggest [Galzria's] complete lack of posts since very very early this morning could be compelling

But he warned us of V/LA this weekend starting today.  He's only made 5 posts today, and only one suggests that he spent any time on it.  O and Morgrim haven't posted in even longer, but neither have made ANY posts in the last 15.5 hours.  I'd say at this point that length in time from posting where so little has been revealed is a pretty flimsy reason.


well i am going to keep my vote on him   at least until he responds and i can see a little bit more of him before i change my mind about anything

[angrybirds]

i would suggest [Galzria's] complete lack of posts since very very early this morning could be compelling

But he warned us of V/LA this weekend starting today.  He's only made 5 posts today, and only one suggests that he spent any time on it.  O and Morgrim haven't posted in even longer, but neither have made ANY posts in the last 15.5 hours.  I'd say at this point that length in time from posting where so little has been revealed is a pretty flimsy reason.


well i am going to keep my vote on him   at least until he responds and i can see a little bit more of him before i change my mind about anything

sorry bolded part is mine that i just added

[Insomniac]

@shraeye: I've never been good at RVS look at any game I played in.

The sharky thing in particular is how I handled day 1 in M6

to your number 5, well I've already said I'm against suit claiming but I was toying with a few ideas when cayvie revealed the SK.

If one person from the mafia aligned suits voluntarily claimed and one from the other suits voluntarily claimed it would prove that there were multi factions, but the scum could use it to game the town. Additionally there isn't really a good way to handle the major arcana. Hence I came out against suit claiming.

And well this is how I play the game.

[Voltgloss]

So I see shraeye starting to attack the specific wording of peoples' posts, which is a common approach by eager new players (it certainly was mine!), and I'm about to dismiss it as such when I see this:

Now new information is given, where Insomniac says this:

I never said we should suit claim I was saying a select few claiming could reveal if there are multiple factions. Quite the contrary I oppose suit claiming especially en masse

Well he had never made a select few/en masse distinction before despite this claim.  Also, he makes it sound like he's now very opposed to something he previously suggested he was for.  Convenient switch now that consensus has come out that town doesn't want suitclaims.

And shraeye makes a pretty good point here.  Insom's "explanation" raises more questions than it answers.  He didn't say anything about "a select few claiming" in his initial post on the subject.  So why make that response?  It feels like trying too hard in response to some early suspicion. 

Insom's latest has me scratching my head some more.  I flat out don't understand what he's getting at in his second-to-last paragraph.  It continues to feel like too much of a response to first-day semi-RVS suspicion.  Which makes me want to ratchet up the pressure some more to see what else we get.

Vote: Insomniac

[Morgrim7]

Ok, thats enough to convince me. Vote: Insomniac

[yuma]

Ok, thats enough to convince me. Vote: Insomniac

Why do you never have unique information to add to a game? Why why why?

[ehunt]

What are we going to do if Morgrim is scum one of these games?

[Voltgloss]

What are we going to do if Morgrim is scum one of these games?

Wait for him to claim cop/rolecop hybrid again?

[Robz888]

I'm pretty sure I did talk about sk/ww here.

If 1/4 of the deck consists of scum roles, we're probably in pretty good shape. 2 WW, 2 Mafia... not so bad. It depends on the luck of the draw - if we get  a Mafia Godfather and a cop clears him early, we're sort of screwed, but you can't really plan for that and whatever. Also depends on whatever the heck the Major Arcana are. I look forward to one of them dying just so that we can know what sort of things they have!

We'll see after N1 what the breakdown is. I would expect 2-3 deaths N1, with the potential for more or less. 3 probably means we have SK or vig, 2 probably means no SK, 4 means SK AND Vig of some sort. 1 death probably means no sk, no vig, and a lucky doctor/roleblocker. I think the probabilities work out so at least 1 ww and at least 1 mafia are pretty likely?

Of course, I was sort of wrong because we had modconfirmation of a SK present. So we should expect 3 night deaths with the possibility of fewer if we get lucky with doctors or with mafia/ww/sk targeting the same person.

Why would 2 deaths in the night mean no Serial Killer? Admittedly, I'm catching up and I might have missed something. Do we have confirmed double scum teams or vig or something?

Also, what is the case against Insomniac? Insomniac never survives Day 1.

[Voltgloss]

Robz, the mod confirmed there is at least one SK.

[Robz888]

Robz, the mod confirmed there is at least one SK.

Right, so we should have 2 deaths, and then maybe a 3rd if Vig or something. But ftl said 2 deaths would mean no Sk...

[Voltgloss]

Also, what is the case against Insomniac? Insomniac never survives Day 1.

The case against Insomniac is that he overreacted to minor pressure, by way of claiming his earlier posts said things that they pretty clearly were not saying.

I know town-Insom also tends to react poorly to pressure, but this was really not much pressure at all (coming from only one source, shraeye).

[shraeye]

So I see shraeye starting to attack the specific wording of peoples' posts, which is a common approach by eager new players (it certainly was mine!)

Insom's latest has me scratching my head some more.  I flat out don't understand what he's getting at in his second-to-last paragraph.  It continues to feel like too much of a response to first-day semi-RVS suspicion.  Which makes me want to ratchet up the pressure some more to see what else we get.

Yeah, I am throwing around some attacks when I see small inconsistencies.  I really like to give people a chance to explain themselves, this gives me a chance to flesh out a ? read into a +/0/- read (these are my shorthand for suspicious or interesting--yeah I'm overloading that symbol--and then pro-town/null/anti-town).

I want to hear Insomniac give a reply to Volt's unstated question.  What do you mean by that second to last paragraph?

If one person from the mafia aligned suits voluntarily claimed and one from the other suits voluntarily claimed it would prove that there were multi factions, but the scum could use it to game the town. Additionally there isn't really a good way to handle the major arcana. Hence I came out against suit claiming.

[shraeye]

Right, so we should have 2 deaths, and then maybe a 3rd if Vig or something. But ftl said 2 deaths would mean no Sk...

I'm so confused here.  It seems to me that we could have Mafia, Werewolves, SK, and even a Vig.  So I'm definitely not expecting more than 4 deaths (wait, I just realized there can be multiple vigs and multiple SKs.  Good gravy.)  But still, I don't really know how many deaths we should expect, or what certain numbers might mean. 

Can't scum also opt for no-kill in the night?  Here, my limited experience with playing this game is limiting (haha) me.  Do scum always kill at night?  Not killing may cause confusion, but I'm not sure that confusion would really change towns strategy at all.  Is not night-killing ever beneficial to mafia, and would the answer change if there were multiple factions?

[Robz888]

Scum will rarely not use a kill.