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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman  (Read 142550 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2012, 09:56:18 am »
+1

Waaaait.

Does Warehouse/Cellar + Hermit work? Like, to turn them into Madmen?

No.  "When you discard this FROM PLAY"
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2012, 09:57:37 am »
0

Too much fun. I'm liking every reveal more and more. Which makes me angrier and angrier these won't be on Iso!!
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2012, 09:58:01 am »
0

Waaaait.

Does Warehouse/Cellar + Hermit work? Like, to turn them into Madmen?

No.  "When you discard this FROM PLAY"

Right. Phew.
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Robz888

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2012, 09:59:02 am »
0

These cards are crazy! Squire looks really good. I am quite surprised it's balanced at $2. (Of course, that's what we said about Crossroads at first.)
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2012, 09:59:34 am »
+1

Does anyone else get the image from Hermit of some dirty old man poking through your trash, grunting?  Sort of like Yoda going through Luke's camp when they first meet on Dagobah.  Finding the flashlight turns him into a Madman.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2012, 09:59:55 am »
0

 
Unless I'm missing something... is there any practical difference between trashing a Madman and returning it to the pile? Because there are only 10 Hermits, you can only ever get 10 Madmen...

*Edit* Graverobber, duh!

Looks like this is the big shift we have to get our heads around: This isn't your grandmother's Trash pile. It's alive!
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Donald X.

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2012, 10:02:06 am »
+8

Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to make sure - can a Scheme save a Hermit from Madness?

Scheme says: "If you discard it from play, put it on your deck."

Hermit says: "When you discard this from play..."

Scheme does not say "if you WOULD discard", so I'm assuming this means you have to discard it from play, then put it on your deck, which means it would trigger Hermit in a turn without a Buy, and Scheme can do nothing to save it.

Not that I'd really want to save the Hermit from madness; this is purely academical.
Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).
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mrdirt73

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2012, 10:05:01 am »
0

Madman- strongest card in the game.
Or a big trap.

How? At worst it's a non-drawing village and of you activate it its power becomes awesome.

Which you can only get by not buying something on a turn. (just realized that you could have more than one hermit in hand when not buying and thus get more than one madman and only miss one buy)  Even so, they're only used once then you have to return to the supply. 

ETA:  All I'm saying is that it's a potential trap.  I think it's too early to tell.  At least for those of us not named Donald.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 10:07:19 am by mrdirt73 »
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2012, 10:07:48 am »
+13

And now for the third installment of But How Do They Combo With Scout?

Squire/Scout is just obvious combo territory. Scout let's you know what's on top of your deck. Squire benefits from this knowledge, because then you know to choose Actions or Buys. And you know what your next hand looks like. Great!

With Hermit, here's the scenario: Oh no, Silvers are Embargoed! Well, you just buy Scout, and then you buy Hermit, and then you use Hermit to dig Scout out of the discard pile and trash it, and you can gain the Silver. Then, repeat for more Silvers.

Madman doubles your handsize. With so many cards in hand, you'll probably have an Estate or something left in your draw pile. And Scout is there to save the day. He makes sure you get that Estate right now.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2012, 10:09:24 am »
0

Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to make sure - can a Scheme save a Hermit from Madness?

Scheme says: "If you discard it from play, put it on your deck."

Hermit says: "When you discard this from play..."

Scheme does not say "if you WOULD discard", so I'm assuming this means you have to discard it from play, then put it on your deck, which means it would trigger Hermit in a turn without a Buy, and Scheme can do nothing to save it.

Not that I'd really want to save the Hermit from madness; this is purely academical.
Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).

Holy crap... Scheme + Hermit sounds like an insane powerhouse! You can gain a Madman several turns in a row with just 1 Hermit; provided enough Schemes.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2012, 10:12:58 am »
+3

Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to make sure - can a Scheme save a Hermit from Madness?

Scheme says: "If you discard it from play, put it on your deck."

Hermit says: "When you discard this from play..."

Scheme does not say "if you WOULD discard", so I'm assuming this means you have to discard it from play, then put it on your deck, which means it would trigger Hermit in a turn without a Buy, and Scheme can do nothing to save it.

Not that I'd really want to save the Hermit from madness; this is purely academical.
Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).

In other words, instead of causing insanity, Scheme just causes Multiple-Personality disorder.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2012, 10:16:31 am »
+7

Squire + Watchtower?

Any attack you want...for 2!  (As long as you have Watchtower in hand.)
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2012, 10:19:52 am »
0


for each Madman played in one turn,
handsize: 5 -> 8 -> 14 -> 26


I think it's actually 5 (+4) -> 9 (+8) -> 17 (+16) -> 34 (+33) -> 67
In other words, if you play 4 Madmen in a row from a 5-card hand, you would have a 67-card hand...if your deck is actually that big!  Even just Madman > Madman gets you a 17-card hand and 3 actions.

I think the original math is correct.  Play madman, you now have 4 cards + 4 = 8.  Play madman you have 7 + 7 for 14 etc..

Yep right, thanks. Starting 5 = including Madman.
(5 - 1) * 2 = 8
(8 - 1) * 2 = 14
(14 - 1) * 2 = 26

You are right, I am wrong.  You get +1 respect!  OK, so 2 Madmen from a 5-card hand = a 14 card hand and 3 actions.  If the rest of your deck is Bridges and a couple of Villages, we have a new Mega Turn trigger that's worth trying.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2012, 10:22:16 am »
0

squire + chapel + feodum seems quite strong. feodum is interesting in being the first cheap alternate vp card not to conflict with early trashing.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2012, 10:22:37 am »
0

Squire + Watchtower?

Any attack you want...for 2!  (As long as you have Watchtower in hand.)

Whoa, yeah. Watchtower definitely boosts some cards in Dark Ages. At minimum it opens up tons of new options (like gaining 3 Silvers instead of Feodum).
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2012, 10:27:47 am »
0

Madman- strongest card in the game.
Or a big trap.

How? At worst it's a non-drawing village and of you activate it its power becomes awesome.

Which you can only get by not buying something on a turn. (just realized that you could have more than one hermit in hand when not buying and thus get more than one madman and only miss one buy)  Even so, they're only used once then you have to return to the supply. 

ETA:  All I'm saying is that it's a potential trap.  I think it's too early to tell.  At least for those of us not named Donald.

It reminds me a lot of Inn, which people know how to play. You basically waste a buy phase for a megaturn. And Hermit can ensure the availability of more Hermits.

Squire + Watchtower?

Any attack you want...for 2!  (As long as you have Watchtower in hand.)
Watchtower isn't bad for topdecking Hermits and speeding that process along either.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2012, 10:28:09 am »
+1

Squire + Watchtower?

Any attack you want...for 2!  (As long as you have Watchtower in hand.)

Whoa, yeah. Watchtower definitely boosts some cards in Dark Ages. At minimum it opens up tons of new options (like gaining 3 Silvers instead of Feodum).

Tired of University not drawing cards?  Well, just University a Cultist with a Watchtower in hand!  University turns into a mega-super-Lab-Village-thing!  Ruins?  Pssh.  Real men use Cultists for +Cards.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 10:29:12 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2012, 10:29:22 am »
0

Squire + Watchtower?

Any attack you want...for 2!  (As long as you have Watchtower in hand.)

Whoa, yeah. Watchtower definitely boosts some cards in Dark Ages. At minimum it opens up tons of new options (like gaining 3 Silvers instead of Feodum).

Or 4 with Trader.

Ironworks Cultist, trash with Watchtower, draw three cards.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2012, 10:30:02 am »
0

If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).
Which is probably the reason that Madman returns itself to the Madman pile rather than trashing itself--since you can use Scheme (or Possession, right?) to protect the Hermit from being trashed, so more than 10 Madmen could be gained during the course of a game (or, of course, you can Graverobber the Hermit back after it's trashed, or probably through some other unrevealed way).
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2012, 10:30:59 am »
0

And now for the third installment of But How Do They Combo With Scout?

Squire/Scout is just obvious combo territory. Scout let's you know what's on top of your deck. Squire benefits from this knowledge, because then you know to choose Actions or Buys. And you know what your next hand looks like. Great!

With Hermit, here's the scenario: Oh no, Silvers are Embargoed! Well, you just buy Scout, and then you buy Hermit, and then you use Hermit to dig Scout out of the discard pile and trash it, and you can gain the Silver. Then, repeat for more Silvers.

Madman doubles your handsize. With so many cards in hand, you'll probably have an Estate or something left in your draw pile. And Scout is there to save the day. He makes sure you get that Estate right now.

Actually, Scout - Madman do have potential. Draw things with scout, increase your draw output with Madman (more cards in hand).
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2012, 10:34:24 am »
0

And now for the third installment of But How Do They Combo With Scout?

Squire/Scout is just obvious combo territory. Scout let's you know what's on top of your deck. Squire benefits from this knowledge, because then you know to choose Actions or Buys. And you know what your next hand looks like. Great!

With Hermit, here's the scenario: Oh no, Silvers are Embargoed! Well, you just buy Scout, and then you buy Hermit, and then you use Hermit to dig Scout out of the discard pile and trash it, and you can gain the Silver. Then, repeat for more Silvers.

Madman doubles your handsize. With so many cards in hand, you'll probably have an Estate or something left in your draw pile. And Scout is there to save the day. He makes sure you get that Estate right now.

Actually, Scout - Madman do have potential. Draw things with scout, increase your draw output with Madman (more cards in hand).

This made me just realize that Madman is a Crossroads variant.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2012, 10:36:31 am »
0

Squire + Watchtower?

Any attack you want...for 2!  (As long as you have Watchtower in hand.)

Whoa, yeah. Watchtower definitely boosts some cards in Dark Ages. At minimum it opens up tons of new options (like gaining 3 Silvers instead of Feodum).

Or 4 with Trader.

Nope, that doesn't work. If you reveal Trader, you never gain the Feodum, so you can't reveal Watchtower to trash it.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2012, 10:39:45 am »
0

Sage might help you activate your Hermit sooner...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 10:41:00 am by bedlam »
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2012, 10:40:00 am »
0

Squire + Watchtower?

Any attack you want...for 2!  (As long as you have Watchtower in hand.)

Whoa, yeah. Watchtower definitely boosts some cards in Dark Ages. At minimum it opens up tons of new options (like gaining 3 Silvers instead of Feodum).

Or 4 with Trader.

Ironworks Cultist, trash with Watchtower, draw three cards.

Cultist costs $5
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2012, 10:40:04 am »
+6

In all this Madman craziness, I think we're ignoring how useful Hermit can be in its own right. The ability to trash cards that aren't in your hand is significant. In games with Curse-givers and/or Looters, it's a powerful deck thinner. It gains you a Silver (for Big Money) or a Village (for your engine) in the bargain. If you're so bogged down with bad cards that you know you won't buy anything this turn, you can use Hermit to gain another Hermit and turn your current one into a Madman.
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