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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman  (Read 142548 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #125 on: August 08, 2012, 12:30:59 pm »
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With so many cards unaccounted for, do we have a good reason for assuming there's only 35 kingdom cards? Has Donald confirmed this?

yes.
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platykurtic

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #126 on: August 08, 2012, 12:44:24 pm »
0

Squire: As a regular card it seems like a lackluster engine component. If you're desperate for +actions to build your engine it'll do like any village, and you can accumulate them easily at least. If you need +buy for your engine, this will also do in a pinch. The flexibility is nice though, and nothing else lets you get tons of buys quite as easily. It might also be a good opener paired with a cheap card you're rushing, which right now means fools gold or poor house.
The trashing component is much more interesting. When used as an opener, what are the chances it lets you grab that crucial first attack faster than if you just bought money? 4-cost attacks you can always buy, so this is all about 5-6 and familiar. I have no doubt someone will compute the probabilities of this colliding with your trasher on turn 3, 4 versus being able to buy them but my gut feeling is that it's a bit sketchy. Racing against potion for familiar for example, you need a collision, while they just need their potion to hit with enough money.

Hermit: A mini-jack combined with a mini-one-shot-tactician. Graverobber just got better. The ability makes it probably worth opening with on curser boards, since it's got a better chance of plucking out the curses than other trashers, and you can fill your deck with silvers or cheap engine component in the meantime. You can also choose to buy nothing and get a tacticiany turn sometime later. This is probably worse vs handsize reducers since it increases the chance of being forced to buy something like copper or let this get trashed when you don't want it to (and it makes the madman turn worse). If you let your hermit go mad (great theming by the way) on turn 3/4 you'll have the madman turn 3rd shuffle.

Madman: I think the tactician analogy sums this one up best. You probably sacrificed a turn to get this one. In most cases after playing this you'll end up with an 8 card hand and two actions, which can certainly let you grab some higher cost cards earlier. If your starting hand has been reduced to 3 it just brings you up to 4 though with an extra action, which isn't great. If you've got an engine that draws half your deck and it hits without the madman, you can now draw your whole deck.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #127 on: August 08, 2012, 12:47:22 pm »
+1

Discard your Curse to Mountebank?  Hermit it!
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #128 on: August 08, 2012, 01:00:01 pm »
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So, since Madman isn't in the supply, then even though there's a whole stack of ten of them, things like Jester and Ambassador have no effect on it. Right?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #129 on: August 08, 2012, 01:02:41 pm »
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A kingdom with swindler and hermit would probably make somebody very angry.  Getting your hard-earned madman turned into a curse would be game-ending, but I guess the chance of it would still be pretty slim.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #130 on: August 08, 2012, 01:04:04 pm »
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A kingdom with swindler and hermit would probably make somebody very angry.  Getting your hard-earned madman turned into a curse would be game-ending, but I guess the chance of it would still be pretty slim.

I've done that to someone's Trusty Steed once. It's kind of satisfying.
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dor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #131 on: August 08, 2012, 01:04:22 pm »
0

So, since Madman isn't in the supply, then even though there's a whole stack of ten of them, things like Jester and Ambassador have no effect on it. Right?

Jester might work, since it doesn't mention anything about the supply: "... gains a copy of the discarded card...".

Ambassador is trickier because you can't return a Madman to the supply, but there is no "if" clause so presumably the other players can gain it, though this is probably only relevant with Possession.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 01:07:13 pm by dor »
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #132 on: August 08, 2012, 01:06:22 pm »
+2

So, since Madman isn't in the supply, then even though there's a whole stack of ten of them, things like Jester and Ambassador have no effect on it. Right?

Jester might work, since it doesn't mention anything about the supply: "... gains a copy of the discarded card...". Ambassador is trickier since you can't return a Madman to the supply, but there is no "if" clause, so presumably the other players can gain it, though this is probably only relevant with Possession.

A "gain" instruction on a card without further stipulation about the source of the gain always means "from the supply", though.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #133 on: August 08, 2012, 01:20:18 pm »
0

So, since Madman isn't in the supply, then even though there's a whole stack of ten of them, things like Jester and Ambassador have no effect on it. Right?

Jester might work, since it doesn't mention anything about the supply: "... gains a copy of the discarded card...". Ambassador is trickier since you can't return a Madman to the supply, but there is no "if" clause, so presumably the other players can gain it, though this is probably only relevant with Possession.

A "gain" instruction on a card without further stipulation about the source of the gain always means "from the supply", though.

Donald X, Donald X, Donald X.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #134 on: August 08, 2012, 01:21:40 pm »
+2

So, since Madman isn't in the supply, then even though there's a whole stack of ten of them, things like Jester and Ambassador have no effect on it. Right?

Jester might work, since it doesn't mention anything about the supply: "... gains a copy of the discarded card...". Ambassador is trickier since you can't return a Madman to the supply, but there is no "if" clause, so presumably the other players can gain it, though this is probably only relevant with Possession.

A "gain" instruction on a card without further stipulation about the source of the gain always means "from the supply", though.

Donald X, Donald X, Donald X.
I don't know why you think we need to summon Donald X. with every little question. AJD is very clearly correct here - you normally can't gain things from anywhere other than the supply - you need to be specifically instructed to do so.

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #135 on: August 08, 2012, 01:21:50 pm »
0

I think I'll definitely skip the potion in a familiar game with squire and a good trasher. The gamble is something like: probability of familiar on second shuffle goes down from 70% to 40%, but no potion in deck, better trashing. If squire is drawn apart from trasher it can pick up two squires.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #136 on: August 08, 2012, 01:22:48 pm »
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(of course we are assuming there are no other desired alchemy cards)
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #137 on: August 08, 2012, 01:26:34 pm »
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I think I'll definitely skip the potion in a familiar game with squire and a good trasher. The gamble is something like: probability of familiar on second shuffle goes down from 70% to 40%, but no potion in deck, better trashing. If squire is drawn apart from trasher it can pick up two squires.

In a game with Squire and a good trasher, I'm likely to ignore Familiar all together.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #138 on: August 08, 2012, 01:30:05 pm »
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Squire + Watchtower?

Any attack you want...for 2!  (As long as you have Watchtower in hand.)

Whoa, yeah. Watchtower definitely boosts some cards in Dark Ages. At minimum it opens up tons of new options (like gaining 3 Silvers instead of Feodum).

Oh dear

Gaining and top decking any attack: $2
Gaining and top decking 3 silvers: $4
Cycling through 3 cards, accelerating your deck: $5

Trashing 9 coppers and 9 curses from KC-KC-Mountebank x3: STILL priceless
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #139 on: August 08, 2012, 01:30:32 pm »
0

So, since Madman isn't in the supply, then even though there's a whole stack of ten of them, things like Jester and Ambassador have no effect on it. Right?

Jester might work, since it doesn't mention anything about the supply: "... gains a copy of the discarded card...". Ambassador is trickier since you can't return a Madman to the supply, but there is no "if" clause, so presumably the other players can gain it, though this is probably only relevant with Possession.

A "gain" instruction on a card without further stipulation about the source of the gain always means "from the supply", though.

Donald X, Donald X, Donald X.
I don't know why you think we need to summon Donald X. with every little question. AJD is very clearly correct here - you normally can't gain things from anywhere other than the supply - you need to be specifically instructed to do so.

Geez, is it impossible for you to just enjoy a joke?  Are you like that butler character from Rat Race?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #140 on: August 08, 2012, 01:33:42 pm »
+2

So, since Madman isn't in the supply, then even though there's a whole stack of ten of them, things like Jester and Ambassador have no effect on it. Right?

Jester might work, since it doesn't mention anything about the supply: "... gains a copy of the discarded card...". Ambassador is trickier since you can't return a Madman to the supply, but there is no "if" clause, so presumably the other players can gain it, though this is probably only relevant with Possession.

A "gain" instruction on a card without further stipulation about the source of the gain always means "from the supply", though.

Donald X, Donald X, Donald X.
I don't know why you think we need to summon Donald X. with every little question. AJD is very clearly correct here - you normally can't gain things from anywhere other than the supply - you need to be specifically instructed to do so.

Geez, is it impossible for you to just enjoy a joke?  Are you like that butler character from Rat Race?

To be fair, I read the "Donald X" post as an actual desire for Donald X to come and answer the rules question; not just a joke.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #141 on: August 08, 2012, 01:38:54 pm »
0

I'm not sure where to put this, I just write it here.

Quote from: donaldx@BGG
Dark Ages has zero blanks.
Hurray!
Now you can start counting!

As I mentioned in that thread, it begs the question of what all the extra cards will be used for. So far we know there will be:

At least 352 Kingdom cards (35 different ones, at least one of which is a Victory card)
Between 20 and 22 cards like Madman that can be gained by trashing another card
Exactly 50 Ruins cards
Exactly 35 randomizers

That leaves as many as 63 cards unaccounted for. Shelters could be any number of those cards. Perhaps there are 50 of them that you randomize, like Ruins.
Oh right, duh, randomizers. I would not at all be surprised if they had randomizers for the different ruins, the upgrade-into-this cards, and 1 or more for shelters. I am guessing there are probably different kinds of shelters, at this point.

This was your 3000th post. Just thought I'd mention.
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chwhite

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #142 on: August 08, 2012, 01:44:23 pm »
0

Crossposted.

Day 3!

Squire: Even without the on-trash ability, this looks like a nifty utility card for both engines and alt-VP matchups.  It can be half a Fishing Village if it collides with your other actions, it can be a mondo +Buy source (+2 Buys!  It's finally been done!), and Silver gain for $2 is a darn good value in decks where you want to flood Silver.  Compare just the silver gain option to Explorer: it gives you $1 less this turn (don't forget it always gives you a buck), and for that meager downside it's $3 cheaper and does so many more other things.  So, as a Silver gainer for alt-VP it's a fantastic value.  As A Village it's probably not a great value, but on boards where you need it it can't be much worse than the Natives; and the +Buys are great for both alt-VP and engine.  All this, and flexibility, for $2?  Seems damn strong for pretty much anything that isn't terminal draw BM.

And that's not even beginning to consider the on-trash effect!  Yikes.  I'm going to go ahead and say the on-trash effect is probably not nearly as powerful as it seems; it's the Treasure Map problem again that you have to line up your trasher and your Squire, which is often going to be an inefficient crapshoot.  Also, you may be overpaying for Squire, and in many kingdoms there either won't be trashing or there won't be Attacks.  (In general I'm not sure I like this proliferation of effects that are dead on certain boards, starting with Tunnel).  I can see it being a really good way to slingshot up to Familiar or Goons, but even the $5 Attacks I think I'll usually want to just buy the old-fashioned way.

Hermit/Madman: I...uh...wuh...buh.  I'm really not sure there's anything intelligent I can say about these two.  I kind of expected to see a trasher that rooted through the discard, actually, so that's neat.  The no-Treasure restriction makes it look JoaT-esque, and I could see it being used in that capacity (gain Silver, pitch Estate) on boring boards.  There are also probably going to be lots of other good cheap cards to get out of Dark Ages (Poor House, Squire anyone?), so it'll have some extra flexibility in engines that way.  But another thing I'm noticing is that the trashers we've seen so far- Graverobber, Hermit- both don't work on Coppers.  With Dark Ages' theme of poverty, it might be hard to get rid of those Coppers in general, which will ding Poor House for sure (and a lot of other cards).

As for Madman, I just have no idea.  When is it worth it to pass on your buy phase to get a Madman?  Just how powerful is it?  Obviously it's powerful, but you've got to jump through a lot of hoops for a one-shot.  I have no idea what do with it at all.  (Actually, that's a lie.  Horn of Plenty decks are going to love Madman.  But beyond that I'm totally stumped.)

...

And now time to read this thread.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #143 on: August 08, 2012, 01:52:11 pm »
0

If theory has some free time, it might be handy to collect DXV's DA rules clarifications, from here and BGG, in his special subforum. But since we haven't seen the rulebook yet, we don't know if they'll all just be addressed in there.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #144 on: August 08, 2012, 01:52:58 pm »
+1

If theory has some free time, it might be handy to collect DXV's DA rules clarifications, from here and BGG, in his special subforum. But since we haven't seen the rulebook yet, we don't know if they'll all just be addressed in there.

They probably will be.  We already know the Lose Track rule will be in there.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #145 on: August 08, 2012, 02:15:25 pm »
0

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Trickster and Saboteur (as if the latter had needed that ;)) seem to get considerably weaker with all these cards with on-trash-abilities!
Anybody guessing correctly what 'trickster' should be? ;-) Any other language but German naming it close to 'trickser'?
It's still 'swindler' here.

Doh! And I could have sworn that the English names of the cards are way more familiar to me than the German ones since playing on Isotropic. I guess the Swindler must be the exception. Maybe because I have recently seen X-Men Origins: Wolverine (in English) which features the word "Trickster" a couple of times... 8)
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #146 on: August 08, 2012, 02:36:17 pm »
0

Horn of Plenty decks are going to love Madman.

Quite possibly true, but my first reaction on reading that was 'But as a one-shot, Madman can't even be counted by Horn of Plenty!'
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chwhite

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #147 on: August 08, 2012, 02:40:09 pm »
0

Horn of Plenty decks are going to love Madman.

Quite possibly true, but my first reaction on reading that was 'But as a one-shot, Madman can't even be counted by Horn of Plenty!'

Yeah, HoP won't count Madman.  But you can still gain stuff from your HoPs on the turns you skip a buy to turn your Hermits into Madmen, and then you can play all your Madmen at once when you go mega-turn.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #148 on: August 08, 2012, 02:54:24 pm »
+1

On second thought, I think I SERIOUSLY underrated Hermit when I made my first guess at it. A common use case is going to be: Trash an estate from your discard, gain a silver, be left with a hand of 4 cards to buy something, possibly another silver.

Sound familiar? Compare to Jack of all Trades. I mean, JoAT also has top-deck filtering, and it can draw up to 5 cards in hand in the mid-game when you're not using it to trash an estate... but JoAT is also quite the powerful BM.

Using Hermit as "trash an estate, gain a silver" is already going to make it a passable BM enabler. But it also has madman shenanigans, so mid-game (after you've trashed all your estates!) you can use his self-trashing power to get a Madman - just in time for when your deck starts getting clogged with a little bit of green, allowing you to power through the last few provinces.

Drawing Hermit-4x Copper on T3 would be pretty bad, though.

I'm not saying Hermit is going to be the new JoAT or anything. It doesn't hardcounter discard-attack BM like Jack does. But still, I suspect it will turn out to be reasonably usable in BM+X.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #149 on: August 08, 2012, 02:59:21 pm »
0

But hermit is also going to be a passable workshop variant in engines with cheap cards. Gain a village, trash an estate is huge even before you decide whether or not you want to trade it for a madman.
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