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[zahlman]

oh, and Ruined Tournament is how you get the booby prizes, like Pony and Bag of Copper.

Pony - choose two: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, or gain 4 Coppers and put your deck into your discard pile.
Bag of Copper - +1 action; gain a Copper on your deck.
Trinket - Worth $1, plus $0 for each unused Action.
Snotty Little Brat - +1 Buy, +$4. While this is in play, cards cost $2 more. At the end of your Buy phase: for each unused Buy, gain a Curse.
Wannabes - +1 Card. Gain a Ruins. Each opponent gains a Ruins and discards down to 5 cards in hand.

Or you can just take an Estate.

So what's the fastest way to empty Feoda and silvers?  How many turns does it take in solitaire?  Sounds like a solo challenge!  You could use Gardens as a stand-in on Iso.

But Iso won't give you Silvers for trashing Gardens...

[GendoIkari]

Also! I noticed that Donald basically said that there were 3 looter cards in Dark Ages.  Yay.

I thought at first he meant there were 3 ways to get / give Ruins cards, one of which were Looters.. but he confirmed what you said on BGG:

There are three Looter cards.

[jotheonah]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

IT JUST DAWNED ON ME

SHELTERS PROTECT YOU FROM LOOTERS
i.e.

Shelter
Victory-Reaction
$2
0 VP

When another player plays a Looter card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Looter.

This seems likely, but Shelter should still give 1VP. I don't know why it can't just be a strictly better estate that keeps the otherwise-OP looters in check.

Agreed.  Ruins are only used if a Looter is in play, right?  So how about: if a Looter is in play, the Estate stack is replaced with the Shelter stack.  (And starting Estates are replaced with starting Shelters.)

then you have the Baron problem.

[ftl]

Ruins games look awesome. I'm really looking forward to them.

The cultist vs witch debate... On second thought, I think the answer will be "it depends".

In a mostly BM game, Witch will hold its own because of 3-pile endings on ruins, curses, duchies and win on the extra +10 points from giving out curses. You'll have to play it a little differently than standard BM+Witch and get extra witches because you'll have extra ruins in your deck and you won't want to let the ruins player snowball into a big cultist engine. However, in a setup with trashing, or any engine potential, cultists will win - it'll be pretty easy to transition into a big drawing engine off of village/cultist/trashed cultist that'll let you find Witch's curses and trash them, whereas the post-cursing transition will be a lot harder with Witch.

[Destry]

Ruined Lookout - Trash the top card of your deck

[ednever]

Ruinses, it turns out, are a pile of cards like Curses, with three ways to get them, besides just buying them or something. They only show up in games with a Looter, which is a word you may have been wondering about on Cultist.

Prediction:
(1) More than one type of Shelter (like more than one type of Ruin)
(2) You play with shelters instead of Estates whenever a Looter is present (Start conditions)
(3) "Three ways to gain Ruins" -> I'll bet it's not "Three cards that give Ruins", but rather "Three ways"
     Way #1: Other player gives them to you like a curse
     Way #2: You give them to yourself as a penalty for a card that would otherwise be too good (We've seen lots of fan cards like this before that have been poo-poo'd. Just like $1 cards and card that take from the trash were poo-poo'd)
     Way #3: Something else? Maybe you start with Ruins? Or cards get transformed into Ruins?

I could be very wrong, but it seems to me only three cards that let you get Ruins ever is pretty limiting. There are 35 cards with DA's which means even a 100% DA's game would only have Ruins in it (and if my theory is right Shelters) in about a third of games (35% if I did my math right?) (vs. all of 100% prosperity games having  Platinum/Colony). And it would mean overall if you played randomly you would barely ever play with Ruins -> 3 cards in ~200?

It would seem like a bit of a waste to have 50 Ruins and 50 Shelters (?) out of a 400 card set that only get played once in a blue moon...

Ed

[jotheonah]

Ruined Bridge - All cards cost the same as they did before.

[GendoIkari]

(3) "Three ways to gain Ruins" -> I'll bet it's not "Three cards that give Ruins", but rather "Three ways"
     Way #1: Other player gives them to you like a curse
     Way #2: You give them to yourself as a penalty for a card that would otherwise be too good (We've seen lots of fan cards like this before that have been poo-poo'd. Just like $1 cards and card that take from the trash were poo-poo'd)
     Way #3: Something else? Maybe you start with Ruins? Or cards get transformed into Ruins?

No, see my post above; Donald confirmed that there are 3 Looter cards.

And it would mean overall if you played randomly you would barely ever play with Ruins -> 3 cards in ~200?

According to the BGG thread, this gives you about a 15% chance of having Ruins in a completely random game. It's identical to the chance of needing VP tokens.

[werothegreat]

(3) "Three ways to gain Ruins" -> I'll bet it's not "Three cards that give Ruins", but rather "Three ways"
     Way #1: Other player gives them to you like a curse
     Way #2: You give them to yourself as a penalty for a card that would otherwise be too good (We've seen lots of fan cards like this before that have been poo-poo'd. Just like $1 cards and card that take from the trash were poo-poo'd)
     Way #3: Something else? Maybe you start with Ruins? Or cards get transformed into Ruins?

No, see my post above; Donald confirmed that there are 3 Looter cards.

And it would mean overall if you played randomly you would barely ever play with Ruins -> 3 cards in ~200?

According to the BGG thread, this gives you about a 15% chance of having Ruins in a completely random game. It's identical to the chance of needing VP tokens.

If Guilds gives 13 Kingdom cards, it will be exactly a 15% chance.

[philosophyguy]

I think Cultist is going to be net weaker than Witch in most situations. Chaining Cultists is exactly like trying to chain Laboratories. It's hard to buy enough 5s to consistently draw your deck without strong trashing, and the fact that psuedo-curses are flying means that it's even harder. Ergo, you're probably only going to get a massive Cultist chain running if there's strong trashing—in which case, the Ruin attack is not going to be that significant. Add in that Ruins just slow your deck building and don't actually hurt your score, unlike Curses, and Witch is going to be superior in most situations.

[Insomniac]

Ruins games look awesome. I'm really looking forward to them.

The cultist vs witch debate... On second thought, I think the answer will be "it depends".

In a mostly BM game, Witch will hold its own because of 3-pile endings on ruins, curses, duchies and win on the extra +10 points from giving out curses. You'll have to play it a little differently than standard BM+Witch and get extra witches because you'll have extra ruins in your deck and you won't want to let the ruins player snowball into a big cultist engine. However, in a setup with trashing, or any engine potential, cultists will win - it'll be pretty easy to transition into a big drawing engine off of village/cultist/trashed cultist that'll let you find Witch's curses and trash them, whereas the post-cursing transition will be a lot harder with Witch.

I have to disagree here I've been thinking about it and I think it will consistently beat witch in the head to head. Cultist engine will give out junk faster because anytime a culstist meets another one its bad times, where as Witch collision is the worst. Now in the end game where curses and ruins are out your both junky but witch collision is bad. Cultist colision is good. If you as the cultist player line up your cultists even once you probably get a province and thats -4vp. win the duchy split or line the cultists up again and its gg

[WanderingWinder]

(3) "Three ways to gain Ruins" -> I'll bet it's not "Three cards that give Ruins", but rather "Three ways"
     Way #1: Other player gives them to you like a curse
     Way #2: You give them to yourself as a penalty for a card that would otherwise be too good (We've seen lots of fan cards like this before that have been poo-poo'd. Just like $1 cards and card that take from the trash were poo-poo'd)
     Way #3: Something else? Maybe you start with Ruins? Or cards get transformed into Ruins?

No, see my post above; Donald confirmed that there are 3 Looter cards.

And it would mean overall if you played randomly you would barely ever play with Ruins -> 3 cards in ~200?

According to the BGG thread, this gives you about a 15% chance of having Ruins in a completely random game. It's identical to the chance of needing VP tokens.

If Guilds gives 13 Kingdom cards, it will be exactly a 15% chance.

Actually, that's not right. There would be 3 cards out of 200 kingdom cards, but because of how combinatorics work, if we excuse possible YW bane considerations and Black Market issues, plucking perfectly randomly, a kingdom of 10 would have a 14.33% (okay, I rounded there) chance to get a ruin-er. The quick way to realize why it's not 15%, even though you expect 1.5 of your 10 cards to be ruin-ers (what are the called anyway? Oh, looters), is because sometimes you are going to have more than one, and while that doesn't happen often, it does sometimes.

[philosophyguy]

Statistics. Not even once.

[LastFootnote]

(3) "Three ways to gain Ruins" -> I'll bet it's not "Three cards that give Ruins", but rather "Three ways"
     Way #1: Other player gives them to you like a curse
     Way #2: You give them to yourself as a penalty for a card that would otherwise be too good (We've seen lots of fan cards like this before that have been poo-poo'd. Just like $1 cards and card that take from the trash were poo-poo'd)
     Way #3: Something else? Maybe you start with Ruins? Or cards get transformed into Ruins?

No, see my post above; Donald confirmed that there are 3 Looter cards.

And it would mean overall if you played randomly you would barely ever play with Ruins -> 3 cards in ~200?

According to the BGG thread, this gives you about a 15% chance of having Ruins in a completely random game. It's identical to the chance of needing VP tokens.

If Guilds gives 13 Kingdom cards, it will be exactly a 15% chance.

Are you including the promo cards in your count?

[Kuildeous]

Ruined Feast.

That's what you get for wanting your pudding when you don't eat your meat.

[werothegreat]

(3) "Three ways to gain Ruins" -> I'll bet it's not "Three cards that give Ruins", but rather "Three ways"
     Way #1: Other player gives them to you like a curse
     Way #2: You give them to yourself as a penalty for a card that would otherwise be too good (We've seen lots of fan cards like this before that have been poo-poo'd. Just like $1 cards and card that take from the trash were poo-poo'd)
     Way #3: Something else? Maybe you start with Ruins? Or cards get transformed into Ruins?

No, see my post above; Donald confirmed that there are 3 Looter cards.

And it would mean overall if you played randomly you would barely ever play with Ruins -> 3 cards in ~200?

According to the BGG thread, this gives you about a 15% chance of having Ruins in a completely random game. It's identical to the chance of needing VP tokens.

If Guilds gives 13 Kingdom cards, it will be exactly a 15% chance.

Are you including the promo cards in your count?

Nope.  Apparently my statistics is faulty, but if you ignore Promos, all the sets together should yield 200 Kingdom cards.

[Davio]

Okay, the problem with Feodum is that you need 9 Silvers to get it up to Duchy level, which is always a good benchmark.

9 Silvers may be no problem with Trader, which can get you that by trashing a Platinum, but with cards that just gain one Silver at a time, it's going to be a real task.

And if we look at Jack, it's very good at getting Provinces, so why would you want to go full throttle on Feoda?

I don't like that it's specific to Silver.
It seems like a missed opportunity to me.
The card from the fan contest which gives 1 VP for every separate set of Copper-Silver-Gold seems more fun to me and more useful.

[Voltgloss]

Okay, the problem with Feodum is that you need 9 Silvers to get it up to Duchy level, which is always a good benchmark.

9 Silvers may be no problem with Trader, which can get you that by trashing a Platinum, but with cards that just gain one Silver at a time, it's going to be a real task.

What Feodum needs is to always appear in conjunction with a card that can net you 3 Silvers a pop.

[werothegreat]

Okay, the problem with Feodum is that you need 9 Silvers to get it up to Duchy level, which is always a good benchmark.

9 Silvers may be no problem with Trader, which can get you that by trashing a Platinum, but with cards that just gain one Silver at a time, it's going to be a real task.

What Feodum needs is to always appear in conjunction with a card that can net you 3 Silvers a pop.

Trader/Cache.

[Davio]

Okay, the problem with Feodum is that you need 9 Silvers to get it up to Duchy level, which is always a good benchmark.

9 Silvers may be no problem with Trader, which can get you that by trashing a Platinum, but with cards that just gain one Silver at a time, it's going to be a real task.

What Feodum needs is to always appear in conjunction with a card that can net you 3 Silvers a pop.

Yes, but that's quite a niche and the more cards come out, the less (barring Dark Ages helpers) likely it is that you will have Trader or something else.

It just seems a bit like Tunnel without the reaction to me in that you will likely grab it over Estate as it's almost always going to be at least one point, but you won't often create a strategy especially for it.

[LastFootnote]

Okay, the problem with Feodum is that you need 9 Silvers to get it up to Duchy level, which is always a good benchmark.

9 Silvers may be no problem with Trader, which can get you that by trashing a Platinum, but with cards that just gain one Silver at a time, it's going to be a real task.

What Feodum needs is to always appear in conjunction with a card that can net you 3 Silvers a pop.

Trader/Cache.

That gets you 2 Silvers, maximum. Also, please tell me you got Voltgloss's clever joke.

[jonts26]

Yeah, you realize he's talking about Feodum itself, right?

[werothegreat]

Okay, the problem with Feodum is that you need 9 Silvers to get it up to Duchy level, which is always a good benchmark.

9 Silvers may be no problem with Trader, which can get you that by trashing a Platinum, but with cards that just gain one Silver at a time, it's going to be a real task.

What Feodum needs is to always appear in conjunction with a card that can net you 3 Silvers a pop.

Yes, but that's quite a niche and the more cards come out, the less (barring Dark Ages helpers) likely it is that you will have Trader or something else.

It just seems a bit like Tunnel without the reaction to me in that you will likely grab it over Estate as it's almost always going to be at least one point, but you won't often create a strategy especially for it.

Rush Silver/Feodum.  See if that can beat big money.  Once Feodums are gone, get Silver/Duchy (or Province if you've got 4 Silvers).

[werothegreat]

Okay, the problem with Feodum is that you need 9 Silvers to get it up to Duchy level, which is always a good benchmark.

9 Silvers may be no problem with Trader, which can get you that by trashing a Platinum, but with cards that just gain one Silver at a time, it's going to be a real task.

What Feodum needs is to always appear in conjunction with a card that can net you 3 Silvers a pop.

Trader/Cache.

That gets you 2 Silvers, maximum. Also, please tell me you got Voltgloss's clever joke.

3.  Trader the Cache as well, not just the two Coppers.  And yes, I got the joke.

Never mind that - but at least the Cache will give you good fodder for the Trader's Action.

[HiveMindEmulator]

(3) "Three ways to gain Ruins" -> I'll bet it's not "Three cards that give Ruins", but rather "Three ways"
     Way #1: Other player gives them to you like a curse
     Way #2: You give them to yourself as a penalty for a card that would otherwise be too good (We've seen lots of fan cards like this before that have been poo-poo'd. Just like $1 cards and card that take from the trash were poo-poo'd)
     Way #3: Something else? Maybe you start with Ruins? Or cards get transformed into Ruins?

Way #1: Given by looter
Way #2: Gain with workshop
Way #3: Buy them