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[werothegreat]

Open Workers Village/Chapel, you'll have a deck with three WV, four poor houses, and one chapel in no time at all. If you open, like, Remake/Steward in a game with a village on the board, that'll also get you there super-fast.

...actually, in general, I think that the presence of Poorhouse and some sub-$5 village is going to encourage faking a chapel opening - opening with two weaker trashers if chapel isn't around. Remake/Steward. Moneylender/Steward.

I was thinking similarly, like Remake/Chapel or even Chapel/Chapel.
Nomad Camp/a village card and a Chapel
Even the ordinarily perilous Mint/Chapel. The lucky turn 3 and 4 draws are, funny enough, 1 Copper each.

Buy 2 PHs, Chapel the remaining Coppers and the Mint, shack up on WV!

[PigFiend]

Sage is the sort of card I have a hard time leaving alone.
For Conspirator, it's probably better than Scheme.
The luck swings in Sea Hag games will be interesting at first but eventually make them even more boring.
As it gets shut down by Duchies, I think it might be a pile-out for Goons engines.
I bet they'll pile-out in Haggler games too.

Ironworks for Sage, Great Hall, and Estate pile-outs? Prrrobably not... I think. OoO

[Voltgloss]

Also, how is nobody but me crying just thinking about a Sage/Sea Hag opening? Cycle your deck super-fast, get lots of plays of Sea Hag in, have both of you be unable to get over $2 or $3 for half the game.

Oh ye of little faith.  The answer to THAT dilemma is clear:  buy Poor House.

(Yes I know the Sages won't hit the PH.  The idea is to use PH to springboard turns that you would otherwise pass into getting <i>something</i> worthwhile at the $4 price point.  Or at the very least Silver.  Then PH+Silver = $5 in hand.)

[ftl]

Sage is the sort of card I have a hard time leaving alone.
For Conspirator, it's probably better than Scheme.
The luck swings in Sea Hag games will be interesting at first but eventually make them even more boring.
As it gets shut down by Duchies, I think it might be a pile-out for Goons engines.
I bet they'll pile-out in Haggler games too.

Ironworks for Sage, Great Hall, and Estate pile-outs? Prrrobably not... I think. OoO

I don't think sage 'gets shut down by' duchies, any more than any other card-draw does. I do think that it loses power as the game goes on. If you open Sage/X and draw Sage, you get to skip over everything in your deck besides the X - super-fast cycling, find your good card. But late-game, when your deck is mostly cards you've bought... well, at best it'll skip a copper or estate or two, but maybe your next card was >2 anyway and it's just a cantrip.

It IS a good conspirator enabler, but not any better than scheme! If you buy two schemes, then all conspirators for the rest of the game are activated. Whereas this still runs the risk of having dead conspirators in your hand, while making it easier to draw them.

Like scheme, definitely a card to pick up in engines whenever you have spare buy.

Ironworks for Sage/GH/estate pileouts will still be low-scoring, I'm not buying it that as a combo.

Also, how is nobody but me crying just thinking about a Sage/Sea Hag opening? Cycle your deck super-fast, get lots of plays of Sea Hag in, have both of you be unable to get over $2 or $3 for half the game.

Oh ye of little faith.  The answer to THAT dilemma is clear:  buy Poor House.

(Yes I know the Sages won't hit the PH.  The idea is to use PH to springboard turns that you would otherwise pass into getting <i>something</i> worthwhile at the $4 price point.  Or at the very least Silver.  Then PH+Silver = $5 in hand.)

Hehe, so true! Card synergies are happening already.

[Beyond Awesome]

PH and Hamlet = BFF

The thing I like about PH is that with Hamlet you can start greening really early since those Provinces really don't hurt you much. Hamlet discards those coppers for + Buy and + Actions to buy more Hamlets/PH and play more PH = Win

Sage seems like a card that with the right components can end up being good. Seems good for engine games where you need to get past your green and treasures.

Graverobber I'm sure also has its applications on the right board.

[Davio]

Might it be an idea to split the preview topics per card instead of per three?

Because of the newness and hotness of the cards, the more focused the discussion, the better, it seems to me.

[werothegreat]

Might it be an idea to split the preview topics per card instead of per three?

Because of the newness and hotness of the cards, the more focused the discussion, the better, it seems to me.

But this way allows for discussion of combos with each other.

[PigFiend]

As it gets shut down by Duchies, I think it might be a pile-out for Goons engines.

I don't think sage 'gets shut down by' duchies, any more than any other card-draw does. I do think that it loses power as

My point was more that it'll probably shine better in VP token strategies like Goons engines because it won't be impeded by Victory cards.

Point taken on Scheme - Sage. I suppose it's sort of moot to debate which is better for Conspirator since it'd be wise to buy Scheme or Sage for it, both if they're available.

[ftl]

So what do people think of Graverobber as a terminal in a standard engine? Play your engine, draw two graverobbers and any other $5, graverob the $5 into a province and then back on top of the deck.

It seems sort of iffy, but maybe I'm underestimating it?

[LastFootnote]

Seems to me like you'd want to have a nebulous plan for Graverobber, but you'd have to use it sort of opportunistically, like Develop. If there's something useful in the trash, play it to gain that card before drawing your whole deck. Then draw that card and either play it or trash it using another Graverobber. In any case, I think you'd nearly always want at least two Graverobbers if you want any.

I'm just speculating, of course. All I know for sure is that it sounds like a lot of fun and is my favorite card of this first batch of three.

[PigFiend]

Graverob Transmute into Philosopher's Stone! Hai-ya!

[Young Nick]

I, for one, still think PH has goofy wording. As is, it looks like you get $0-4 from a single PH, never more, never less. Apparently this is wrong. I guess that doesn't seem intuitive.

Also, the wording on Graverobber does lend itself to enforceability issues. It doesn't say "may" and doesn't say "or reveal a hand with no such actions." If someone didn't want to trash an action from their hand, but also didn't want to pick up a Silver from the trash, there'd be no way to prove that they had no cards in their hand to trash.

The cards look cool, but I am disappointed about their wording.

[Young Nick]

Also, I have to wonder why theory posted this and not DXV, himself.

[Beyond Awesome]

Seems to me like you'd want to have a nebulous plan for Graverobber, but you'd have to use it sort of opportunistically, like Develop. If there's something useful in the trash, play it to gain that card before drawing your whole deck. Then draw that card and either play it or trash it using another Graverobber. In any case, I think you'd nearly always want at least two Graverobbers if you want any.

I'm just speculating, of course. All I know for sure is that it sounds like a lot of fun and is my favorite card of this first batch of three.

Hmm, now that you mention Develop, maybe the two play well together. Develop a gold into KC and Graverobber, use robber to get Gold back, IDK.

[WheresMyElephant]

I, for one, still think PH has goofy wording. As is, it looks like you get $0-4 from a single PH, never more, never less. Apparently this is wrong. I guess that doesn't seem intuitive.

It is a little confusing at first glance but the way out is to just realize that the +$4 and the -$X are totally separate effects and have nothing to do with each other. After the first effect is resolved, you resolve the second, and the second might as well be printed on a separate card for all that they interact with each other. (For instance if another card somehow prevented or modified the first effect, the second effect would still function exactly the same.) So why should the second effect stop at -$4? It doesn't even "know" if you gained $4 in the first place.

Anyway we've always needed manuals for edge cases, and this is no different. (How often are you really going to play PH in a deck where it's even close to giving negative coins?) And compared to "while this card is in play," PH is child's play.

[Jedit]

The Best Dominion Cards List 2013: $1 cards

My votes:

1) Poor House

Any arguments?

[LastFootnote]

The Best Dominion Cards List 2013: $1 cards

My votes:

1) Poor House

Any arguments?

You may want to hold your vote until we're absolutely sure there are no other $1 cards in the set.

[blueblimp]

So what do people think of Graverobber as a terminal in a standard engine? Play your engine, draw two graverobbers and any other $5, graverob the $5 into a province and then back on top of the deck.

It seems sort of iffy, but maybe I'm underestimating it?

That's seems alright if you have lots of villages. 2 actions and 3 cards to get a Province is not bad. Gold/Gold/Woodcutter uses 1 action and 3 cards to get a Province, to compare.

[engineer]

I understand that PH can give you negative coin, but can it count against treasure that you haven't played yet? 

For example, what if I use a lab chain to draw a bunch of cards, and my hand is: Market, Poor House, Copper x7.  I play the market (and draw estate, whatever).  I have 1 coin currently.  Then I play PH.  I get +4, so 5 total.  Then what happens?

a) I get -7, but it bottoms out at zero...so if i don't play the coppers, I have zero, but if I do play the 7 coppers, I only end up with $5, since 1 + 4 - 7 + 7 = 5.
b) I only get -5, since I only have 5 coin at that point, and then I play 7 coppers, so I have $7.

I feel like the answer is (b) based on previous posts, but I'm still not 100% clear on this issue.

[Grujah]

b). It says on card you can't have less than 0 cash.

[werothegreat]

I understand that PH can give you negative coin, but can it count against treasure that you haven't played yet? 

For example, what if I use a lab chain to draw a bunch of cards, and my hand is: Market, Poor House, Copper x7.  I play the market (and draw estate, whatever).  I have 1 coin currently.  Then I play PH.  I get +4, so 5 total.  Then what happens?

a) I get -7, but it bottoms out at zero...so if i don't play the coppers, I have zero, but if I do play the 7 coppers, I only end up with $5, since 1 + 4 - 7 + 7 = 5.
b) I only get -5, since I only have 5 coin at that point, and then I play 7 coppers, so I have $7.

I feel like the answer is (b) based on previous posts, but I'm still not 100% clear on this issue.

Play Market.  Coins = 1.
Play Poor House.  Coins = 5.
Poor House reveals your hand, showing 7 Treasures.  Coins = 0.
Play 7 Coppers.  Coins = 7.

So, b.

[DG]

I'll give you inn + poor house as an interesting combo. Even that hints at problems transferring from a copper economy into a poor house deck, since where do you get the 5 coins to buy the first inn?

[engineer]

Okay, that sounds like consensus.  Knowing Donald, he probably addresses exactly this issue in the rule book.

On a different note, I'm hoping that there are more $1 card in Dark Ages.  With the number of cards out already, the chance of getting kingdoms with just PH and upgrade/remake are very small.  I think this dynamic is interesting, and I think other things about $1 cards are interesting, so I'd like to see a few more of them in order to make the appearance of a $1 card more likely.

[Schneau]

A few thoughts on Poor House:

- We're all going bananas about whether PH can give negative coins (it can) and whether negative coins affect future plays of Treasures (they don't). But, all of this is pure speculation and will likely never affect anything beyond the Puzzles forum. Why would you play a PH if it makes you have less money to spend? (Alright, there may be some edge cases like HoP and Peddler and Conspirator, but these will be rare).

- PH may not combo as well with sifters / discarders as we might imagine. Say you play a Warehouse and have to decide what to discard with a hand of PH, C, C, C, E, E, E. It doesn't matter what you discard, you will still get $4. This shows how discarding Coppers only improves PH if you play more than one PH after the discard, and discarding Silver only helps if you play at least 3. Hamlet still seems pretty nice with PH, since it's cheap, gives +Buy, gives 2 Actions, and gives discarding. Still, you would have to have 2 PH + Hamlet in hand to make discarding Coppers worthwhile.

[pingpongsam]

Once upon a time I played IRL Dominion and found the game fun. One day I thought to see if the game could be played online. I discovered Isotropic. Woe unto me for thinking I understood how the cards worked!

And now, with new untested cards coming forth, I see that I am not alone.