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[DWetzel]

There's got to be some bizarre Graverobber combo involving Duchy/Duchess/Watchtower, but I can't quite wrap my mind around it yet.  Something like trash Duchess, gain Duchy, gain Duchess, put Duchess on deck with Watchtower, draw Duchess somehow, trash another Duchess, gain Duchy... gain Duchess...

[Saucery]

I wouldn't be surprised if remodel decks became viable with these types of cards.

(hm, just noticed that mining village will consistently give you something worthwhile to graverob)

[GendoIkari]

Later this seems pretty weak. I think this filter mechanic is better in cursing games and it counters Ghost Ship.

With you on all of your observations, but I don't get this one.  Sage still consumes a card slot, so if you keep Sage just to redraw something you put back, well, you might as well have kept the something else and put the Sage back for all the difference it makes.  If you had a Sage but NOT your desired target, you could have drawn it with Sage equally as well regardless of whether you'd been Ghost Shipped or not.  What am I missing?

Say you have two Markets, two Estates, and a Sage in your hand.  Opponent plays Ghost Ship.  Put the Estates on your deck.  When it's your turn, play Sage. 

Ok, so it turns a Ghost Ship into a Militia instead.  The attack still hurts (well, not in that example), but the effect is muted.  Cool.

Worth noting that this is similar to Farming Village, Golem, Loan, Venture, and Adventurer. They are all soft-counters to Ghost Ship, so long as you have VP or Curses to put back on your deck.

[pingpongsam]

You know what?  I think Sage is an attempt to fix Chancellor (sort of like how Noble Brigand "fixes" Thief).  It discards, so it does well with Tunnel (if you get costs down), and it gives +1 Action.

Tunnel is a $3 card so it would just be drawin into hand, not discarded.

[werothegreat]

I wouldn't be surprised if remodel decks became viable with these types of cards.

(hm, just noticed that mining village will consistently give you something worthwhile to graverob)

Infinite Mining Villages!  Infinite Feasts.  I think the "from $3 to $6" clause is to prevent infinite Embargoes.  Unless Dark Ages has a card that increases costs...

[chwhite]

Sage/Poor House is hilariously nombo-tastic.  Sage in general will obviously be made worse by good $2 (and $1!) cards.

I think I may have oversold the extent to which Poor House breaks Upgrade/Remake.  Obviously it does break them as early-game deck thinners, but I could see Upgrade being a great way to gain Poor Houses if the kingdom is otherwise right for it.  And since a 5-card Poor House hand is going to give you at least $4 no matter what (thanks for the reminders of that), I bet Poor House's downside is low enough that the kingdom is often going to be right for it.

Poor House definitely looks like the best of these three cards.

[LastFootnote]

Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.

Dude, Graverobber/University has the potential to be massive. Gain a bunch of $5 Actions with University and then Graverob them into Provinces. University even lets you gain AND play Graverobbers very quickly. I'll bet that's a combo worth trying.

[Willvon]

It is so great to finally start seeing some cards from this expansion.  I was sure that we would see something about Shelters or Ruins first thing today, but instead we get 3 other cards, two of which defy boundaries that many have stated in discussions here would not be broken or could/should not be done, namely:

1) We have a card that allows you to dig through the trash pile and take what you want (within limits). Of course, we have always had Thief, which lets you take a card someone trashed, but it doesn't let you get a different card someone placed there earlier. So this is a big change. And though I would agree that you don't want to be trashing a lot of good 5's, when Witch and Mountebank and Torturer have run their course and can no longer hand out Curses, I can now trash them and gain that Province you put in the trash to try to speed up the game ending. With Graverobber in the game, you now have to think twice about trashing Provinces.

2) We finally have a card costing 1, something that people have said numerous times will never happen. So now you can't Upgrade those Coppers to nothing anymore, unless of course you enjoy being in the Poor House.

[DWetzel]

Oh, and your new golden, er, well, we'll have to come up with a name for it:

Crossroads/Poor House/Poor House/Bishop/Province.

[Schneau]

Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.

Dude, Graverobber/University has the potential to be massive. Gain a bunch of $5 Actions with University and then Graverob them into Provinces. University even lets you gain AND play Graverobbers very quickly. I'll bet that's a combo worth trying.

Sure, I could definitely see that being a good combo. But, that's not the point I was making. I was just saying that their restrictions make parts of them not interact with relatively strong cards that cost $2P.

[ChocophileBenj]

About the myth of the "card costing $1" : Why not, but WHY ON EARTH should the card give $4, like Fool's Gold did ?!?!?

And meanwhile :
Apprentice : "I'm done ! It's you to act !" Graveyard : "Thanks !"

[WheresMyElephant]

Not to let my blind adoration of Donald X. get the better of me, but DA has been in development forever and Graverobber looks like one of its defining cards. Until I see it in action I find it really hard to believe it will be total crap.

Sage/Poor House is hilariously nombo-tastic.  Sage in general will obviously be made worse by good $2 (and $1!) cards.

I can imagine a situation where your deck is stuffed full of PHs and you use Sage to help find your villages.

[Glooble]

Not to let my blind adoration of Donald X. get the better of me, but DA has been in development forever and Graverobber looks like one of its defining cards. Until I see it in action I find it really hard to believe it will be total crap.

Sage/Poor House is hilariously nombo-tastic.  Sage in general will obviously be made worse by good $2 (and $1!) cards.

I can imagine a situation where your deck is stuffed full of PHs and you use Sage to help find your villages.

That's not a bad plan...

[jonts26]

Waking up to all new dominion cards is like Christmas. But I guess we get a bunch of days of this so more like Hanukkah then?

[rinkworks]

Rules question:

Your hand:  Laboratory, Bazaar, Poor House, Copper, Copper.

Play Laboratory, draw two Coppers.  Play Bazaar, draw another Copper.  Your hand now looks like:  Poor House, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, and you've already produced $1 to spend from the Bazaar.

Now play Poor House and all of the Coppers.  How much do you have to spend now?

Option 1:  $6.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $0 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.
Option 2:  $5.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $-1 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.

[LastFootnote]

Rules question:

Your hand:  Laboratory, Bazaar, Poor House, Copper, Copper.

Play Laboratory, draw two Coppers.  Play Bazaar, draw another Copper.  Your hand now looks like:  Poor House, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, and you've already produced $1 to spend from the Bazaar.

Now play Poor House and all of the Coppers.  How much do you have to spend now?

Option 1:  $6.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $0 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.
Option 2:  $5.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $-1 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.

Poor House can net you negative coins. Option 2 is correct. Donald has confirmed it at BGG.

[shraeye]

Graverobber: A really cool sounding card that only is good in multiples with extra actions, and is only great with expensive +2 Action cards.  Will be loved by newbies, avoided by intermediates, and used only sparingly by experts.  An expand with option to gain a card from the trash instead, AND it only costs 5?!? Yes please! But wait just a minute, the expand only works with actions.  And with Graverobber on the board, other people will have the means to resurrect many of the actions that you 'Expand'.  Maybe this will be stronger if it's in the Black Market deck and you have the only one, but then you also need a trasher card that will be used on desirable cards from 3-6.  When I think about trashes I've seen after playing (IRL only do I notice the trash, since I am usually the one to sort it) there aren't normally good cards there unless apprentice is on the board, or there were a few late-game remodels of gold to province.  If someone is turning gold to provinces, the game is too close to ending for me to bother nabbing the gold from the trash.  And if there's apprentice on the board, I'd probably buy it over Graverobber with every 5 I have.  So this looks terrible, but what if I have a lot of this terrible card?  With plenty of plus actions, I can use this to gain something really expensive for free.  Play Graverobber to turn my Bazaar into a Province, then play a Graverobber to get the Bazaar back before my opponent has a chance to grab it.  This works great with City, Bazaar, Festival, Inn, Nobles (any expensive card that gives +2 actions).  Especially Nobles, since they give enough +cards that you will have more than one Graverobber.  Actually, having 2 Graverobbers and a +2 actions in hand is asking a lot without plenty of +cards, and if you're trying to buy +cards, +actions, and multiple Graverobbers, that seems like a tough combo to pull off.

Some other ideas people have reminded me of.  This card could be an unavoidable card in that if my opponent buys some, I have to also buy some or risk him getting easy free cards as his actions sit unclaimed in the trash.  There are a few cards like Feast and Mining Village that would be great.  I can see opening Feast and then gaining a Graverobber from the feast, hoping to reuse that feast many, many more times.  I think this will make Feast/something a worthwhile opening over Silver/Silver.  I am also excited to see if this works well with University.

Dude, Graverobber/University has the potential to be massive. Gain a bunch of $5 Actions with University and then Graverob them into Provinces. University even lets you gain AND play Graverobbers very quickly. I'll bet that's a combo worth trying.

[Saucery]

I predict that Saboteur will become a less awful possibly useful card due to DA

[DStu]

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.

I would say it is absolutely obvious that it means that Poor Houses's minimum is $0, but as rinkworks asks this question, I should read again...
...
...
Ok, now I think it's equally obvious that it is "total coins spend so far".

[LastFootnote]

I predict that Saboteur will become a less awful possibly useful card due to DA

Hmm, lose a Silver, gain a Poor House? Probably a bad example, but it's fun to consider the new possibilities.

[jonts26]

OK here are my thoughts on the cards:

Graverobber: It's strength is highly dependent on other trashers. Unless there's a way to easily gain action cards, or trash for benefit, likely this card won't see much play. But since Dark Ages is the trashing theme, I expect the utility of Graverobber will only increase as we get more cards.

Poor House: I knew we'd get a $1 card sooner or later. It's a fun design space to explore. This card though, has the potential to get silly. But i expect it won't be worth it on most boards. This card screams engine (well its not working in big money), but more card draw means more potential treasures. So again, you need heavy trashing. But when you get it, look out. $4 terminal action is just crazy.

Sage: Somewhat vanilla, but yeah. I don't think I'd buy it very often. It just finds me other engine parts, but you know, I could just buy those engine parts. Likely it will be at it's best when you can use it to spam a powerful terminal, probably a mountebank or something. It does have a cute TR/KC interaction. You get to find 2 or 3 cards and you get the extra actions to play them.

[Tdog]

I predict that Saboteur will become a less awful possibly useful card due to DA

Or more awful? Because if you sabatour somebody's gold, they take a silver for it and then they get there hold back from graverobber. Then you jut gave them a free silver. But you could get the gold, so I don't know.

[chwhite]

1) We have a card that allows you to dig through the trash pile and take what you want (within limits). Of course, we have always had Thief, which lets you take a card someone trashed, but it doesn't let you get a different card someone placed there earlier. So this is a big change. And though I would agree that you don't want to be trashing a lot of good 5's, when Witch and Mountebank and Torturer have run their course and can no longer hand out Curses, I can now trash them and gain that Province you put in the trash to try to speed up the game ending. With Graverobber in the game, you now have to think twice about trashing Provinces.

Graverobber only lets you get cards up to $6, so you can't use it to poach Provinces from the trash.  The restrictions on Graverobber are actually pretty strict.  You can use it to trade in your past-its-useful-life Witch for a Province, though.

[ehunt]

in the scenario lab + bazaar + poor house (revealing five coppers), it seems to me that the total amount of money at end of turn is 5. Before revealing poor house, you have 1 "abstract money." Poor house adds 4, then subtracts 1 per copper. Now you have 0. Then you get five money when you play the copper.


If it's lab + lab + bazaar + poor house (revealing six coppers), it seems that the total amount of money is 6. Poor house again adds 4 to your 1, reaching 5. It tries to take away 6, but it can't per the bottom of the card, so it only takes away 5. Then you get 6 money when you play the copper.

[LastFootnote]

So, here's a couple of thoughts about Graverobber.

First, why does it specify a minimum of $3 for the cards it fishes out of the trash? There's probably a good reason, but I can't think of one right now.

Second, it seems to lack accountability. If you choose the second option, but have no Action cards in hand, are you obligated to reveal your hand?