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Author Topic: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard  (Read 3996 times)

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Morgrim7

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Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« on: July 29, 2012, 08:44:09 pm »
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Found this interesting when playing against an opponent a little while ago. The point of this combo is to use Hagglers to gain a bunch of cheap actions, increasing the value of Vineyard. Villages and Cantrips are best, but terminals will do. Another thing nice about this combo is that the Hagglers make it really easy to gain Potions and other Hagglers.
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dondon151

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2012, 08:48:24 pm »
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The only drawback of using these two cards in conjunction is that you're forced to gain Copper from Vineyard buys and you can't gain Vineyard from P cost buys. But I think it's only a minor drawback.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 09:14:50 pm »
+1
It isn't even a drawback. Just don't play the Haggler.
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dondon151

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 11:04:51 pm »
+1
It is if you have +buy.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 11:17:36 pm »
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jomini

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 11:21:33 pm »
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Let's say you have Copper/Festival/Haggler/Green/Pot. If you play the haggler you can get festival/X - wahoo. If you buy the vineyard as well - enjoy your free copper.



It is also a drawback if you run out of actions below a certain price point. E.g. if you stock up on pearl divers, then haggler & buy a menage means you have to take a copper once the pearl divers are gone. It is also a drawback if you are playing golem, Tr/Draw, or if you need the haggler cash (e.g. you draw just haggler & want a pearl diver or you draw Haggler/Pot & want a scrying pool).

That being said, Haggler is a very effective gainer. I'm not sure if there is any true synergy here though. It seems to be a linear addition. Still it can be a quite strong setup, particularly with enough cheap useful actions (e.g. Xroads is great here).
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 01:26:23 am »
+1
Vineyard might actually be the major alt vp card that haggler combos worst with. Getting extra Silver, which is basically always available is great for Gardens, Silk Road and Duke. Getting more of the cheaper cards without having to buy down us also pretty nice for Fairgrounds and Nobles. Buy Vineyards has the issue that you're often buying cards with nothing cheaper other than Copper.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 01:46:46 am »
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The thing is, a) The copper does not hurt the deck that bad, and b) Hagger helps to get lot of Potions, and if you have lots of Potions, you should be setting yourself up for a fast greening phase and if you are greening really fast, then the game is so close to ending that you might not even see the Copper again.
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rrenaud

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 02:14:54 am »
+1
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 02:28:19 am »
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Supply win also backs up my claim that it's Vineyards is the alt VP card that likes Haggler least, thought somewhat surprisingly to me, it's negative with Silk Road.

http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=Victory&interaction=Haggler&nested=false&unconditional=true
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 02:42:32 am »
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Wait what? Per gain and any gain is higher with Vineyard/Haggler than many others. I must be reading this wrong.
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

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rrenaud

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 02:45:26 am »
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Sort by delta quality.  (I should make the sorting option a url param).

The per gain on vineyards baseline is really high.  Adding haggler makes it a bit worse.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 02:56:05 am »
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Ahh, I see. Oh, well, I learned two things today: 1) Sort by Quality, not per gain. 2) Haggler is even better with alt vp than I thought it was.
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
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blueblimp

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Re: Combo: Haggler/Vineyard
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 10:29:57 am »
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Quality is mostly determined by WGAG, with small effects from gain % and some static properties of the card. https://github.com/rrenaud/dominionstats/blob/master/static/supply_win.js

So when looking at delta quality, since static properties of the card don't matter, you're mostly looking at the difference in WGAG.
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