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Author Topic: General Deck Compositions  (Read 4162 times)

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carbonduck

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General Deck Compositions
« on: June 15, 2011, 04:01:59 pm »
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As admitted in my other thread, I am a complete newbie to Dominion, so please keep that in mind as I ask this question.

On what basis should I stop buying something? I guess another way to ask the question is, what sort of balance should I be looking for in a deck? I realize that the answer is likely to be "it depends on the card set," but I'm looking for a general guideline.

For (a very simple) example, let's say there is a Witch on board. How many Witches should I be looking to buy? 2? 4? As many as I can? The way I see it, buying too many is dangerous because it's a terminal card. On the other hand, denying the Witch to the other players can be a strong play, no?

Another example, what sort of balance should I be going for with the currency cards? Often I'll just buy whatever currency I can afford (if I don't want any of the kingdom cards), and I'll end up with something like 7 coppers, 6 silvers, and 6 golds. Is that too diluted?

And lastly, a question about trashing cards. Sometimes I'll have something like Chapel, Gold, Silver, Copper, Copper and I'll forego trashing the coppers in order to buy a $7 card. Is it worth more than a $7 card to trash the silvers and coppers in order to have a more streamlined deck the next time around?
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painted_cow

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 04:23:05 pm »
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Okay, I will try to answer one by one:

1. Witch: I think the universal answer is 1 or 2. Of course it differs from setup, but you wanted a guideline. More arent that good, because the curses will be empty later on and then the witch is
nothing more than a expensive Moat...The denying fact is quite nonsense, as it would only make "sense" is you get all 10 of it (which is nonsense itself).

2. Basically you dont need a certain balance at all. The more Gold you have the better (only guideline). You should only take Silvers on the road to good 5$-cards/Gold. Later on Silver isnt a good
buy at all, cause you clog your deck with it and draw your really good cards like Gold or good 5$-action cards not often enough. Get rid of your coppers, if the setup allows this ("trashing").

3. Trashing: As stated above: just trash your coppers, as it isnt like turn 20 and you somehow have still coppers in your deck but could get the last province with them. With the 7$ cards its really
 depending on which of them.

Keep in mind, that these are only guidelines. For beginning play they should apply very often. When you get more experienced you will see, that you can differ from them sometimes.
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rinkworks

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 04:40:59 pm »
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It does depend on the card set, but to go into sufficient detail as to be useful:

(1) How many Witches should you have?  You're right to be leery of stuffing your deck with too many.  But how many is too many depends on what other cards are available.  If there are Village-type cards available, you can buy some of those, which will allow you to support more Witches.  Play a Village, and you can then play two Witches on the same turn, so you can afford to purchase more Witches.

But without a source of +2 Actions, extra Witches that come up in one hand are dead cards, so you will want to buy fewer Witches.  It's also worth noting that the Curses might very well run out before the Witches do, so denying Witches to your opponents may backfire big time:  If you're the one with more Witches, your hand is the one weakened more when the Curses run out.

(2) How many of some other card should you have?  Some cards, usually the terminal ones, you only want one, maybe two of.  As powerful as Chapel is, you rarely need more than one.  But others work better when you get as many of them as you can.  Minion and Conspirator, for example, are both fine on their own, but to unlock their real power, you need as many of them as you can get and not much else.

(3) Rather than thinking in terms of how much total treasure you have, think in terms of your average treasure value.  If the average value of your treasure cards is, say, $1.5, then buying a silver will increase the average wealth available to you on any given turn.  But if it's $2.5, then buying a silver actually makes you poorer, if you think about it.  Imagine if all your deck consisted of was 5 golds.  You'll get $15 to spend next turn.  Say you buy another gold.  Now you'll get $15 next turn as well.  But if you bought a silver, you will probably only have $14 then.  You've increased your OVERALL wealth, but hurt the stat that matters:  how much wealth will the average hand draw?

Of course there is a second variable here:  the ratio of treasure cards to other cards.  If rampant Witching has left you with a deck full of curses, then buying a silver -- and maybe even supplementing them with a few coppers -- might help loosen things up a bit.  On the other hand, if your deck is bloated that badly, you won't get to use those treasure purchases very much anyway, if at all.  It's a complicated balancing act that others here have a better sense for than I do.  But these are the sorts of considerations you can take into account.

I'll leave your last question, about trashing treasure on $7 hands, to someone with more insight.
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Elyv

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 05:08:25 pm »
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I'll leave your last question, about trashing treasure on $7 hands, to someone with more insight.
I guess I'll give it a shot.

What 7s are there? I might avoid trashing coppers if there's a King's Court, but the other 7s are not spectacular in Chapel decks; Forge can be tricky to use, Expand is pretty slow, and you usually don't have a lot of treasure so bank is often a gold at best.
What 5s are there? If there's a good 5 I'll probably trash both coppers; if not, probably only one of them so I can buy a gold.

I wouldn't trash the silver unless I had a lot of gold in my deck and/or my deck was really good.
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Stoc

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 05:38:10 pm »
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Also when debating whether to trash or make a bigger buy, consider how important the card vs trashing is to your current deck.

An exaggerated example would be buying a King's Court (which does best in a action-heavy, low clutter deck) vs. buying a Bank where those coppers would actually help you! Another example is the Turn 1 Mint-buy mentioned in another thread. "I get to trash 5 coppers on the first turn, and get a 5-card?!" However, it actually hurts you more often than not.

This is really the crux of the issue, unfortunately it's rarely this cut and dry. As you play more and more, you start to get a feel for it but I'm definitely not at a point where it's a snap decision for me and I have over 500 games logged on Isotropic.
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carbonduck

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 06:03:47 pm »
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Thanks a lot for your replies, everyone.

Seeing as how every game of Dominion is completely different (unless you play preset kingdoms), there really is no such thing as a "build" like in SC2 or WoW. I really like that aspect of this game, even though it makes it harder for newbies since there's no right way to play.

However, the information in this thread has really helped me to better understand general guidelines and how to make better decisions in the future. Particularly surprising for me were: 1) only needing 1 of a non-terminal card except in rare circumstances, 2) trashing is a lot more important than I thought, 3) thinking in terms of average treasure value.
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painted_cow

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 06:41:28 pm »
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Particularly surprising for me were: 1) only needing 1 of a non-terminal card except in rare circumstances, 2) trashing is a lot more important than I thought, 3) thinking in terms of average treasure value.

In many cases you can get more than 1 non-terminal actions. When the game progresses you can get a second, third etc. action, because you have more other cards in your deck which wont collide with your action cards.
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theory

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 07:21:56 pm »
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Particularly surprising for me were: 1) only needing 1 of a non-terminal card except in rare circumstances, 2) trashing is a lot more important than I thought, 3) thinking in terms of average treasure value.

In many cases you can get more than 1 non-terminal actions. When the game progresses you can get a second, third etc. action, because you have more other cards in your deck which wont collide with your action cards.
This is one of those things that depends on how your deck is constructed.  If you anticipate trashing heavily and having lots of Labs, then you'll be drawing your whole deck every turn and so you can't afford to have more than one terminal.  If it's going to be a long, drawn-out game, without much trashing, where you can't draw through your deck effectively, then you can load up on terminals because your deck is going to be so fat it's incredibly unlikely you'll draw them together.

And of course, if you have Villages then you can load up on terminals.  But you better be going somewhere good with it, since that costs time and money.  The classic example is +Actions/+Cards, but Fishing Village/Monument, for instance, works pretty well.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 07:49:08 pm »
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There is not an answer that fits every situation, obviously, but there is a reason that most CCGs require a fifty or sixty card deck.  So in Dominion, which doesn't have this requirement, it is of absolute importance to distill your deck as much as you can.  This does not always mean having a five card deck, but rather a density of powerful cards.

Often in a game i can judge how well I am doing mid-game by how many cards are in my deck compared to my opponent.  If I have ten less cards I am usually on a path to winning.  Usually.  There are of course games where my opponent has a great set of chain cards going on, his deck is fatter than mine and my two play turns are overpowered by a huge chain of non-terminals.  This is an exception to the rule.

The main skill of Dominion, not by means the only one but the most important in my opinion, is the ability to look over the Kingdom set, choose the best interacting cards and focusing on putting a deck together that focusing on those cards.  You must learn to ignore powerful cards that do not further that plan or make a new plan that incorporates them.  There are a few cards that are must buys almost every time they appear, but in many cases a card that really helped you in a different setup may actually dilute your deck and therefore should be avoided.

Also, remember that absent some heavy attack situations that draw out games, you really only have at most about ten turns to prepare to start buying VP cards.  Some games go over twenty-five turns and some end as quickly as eleven, but I can say that most of my games end somewhere between fourteen and nineteen turns.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: General Deck Compositions
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 07:52:25 pm »
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One more thing to add:  decks made up of terminal drawing cards like Smithy or Envoy are absolutely self-destroyed by the cheap +1card +1action cards.  If you are playing with them buy Treasure instead.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!
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