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[popsofctown]

The board I played IRL was as follows:
6: Farmland
5: Witch, Ill-Gotten Gains, Library
4: Jack of All Trades, Noble Brigand, Thief, Bureaucrat, Gardens
3: Chancellor

My opponent, 11 year old, seasoned fifth timer Jon Jon, opened with a 2$ copper for the wrong reasons.  That sparked my attention about how this might be one of those rare (debatably nonexistent) copper opening boards.  In previous discussion on this board about opening Copper, the best argument for it was +2 cards 5$ openers, because if you buy a copper you can buy 2 cards during the second run through your deck instead of the usual 1 card because Witch or Ghost ship draw just enough cards to trigger a reshuffle.

On this board, Copper also later effectively buys IGG, Duchy, and Gardens.  Even though there's a curser on this board, the last few curses, maybe 4 or so, can be "IGG rushed", because buying a Witch would actually do little to help at that point and IGG is such a nice alternative to the Curse when it can fuel Gardens and buy Duchies heading towards the probable Duchy, Gardens, Curses ending.

Perhaps a copper is not a good idea though - Farmland trashing a Curse is a 10 card Fairgrounds with "This is Silver if you can use it to buy a province.  Getting at least a few Provinces and Farmlands could be enough of an edge..

What are general thoughts about this board?  I find it to be a very interesting board, which is synonymous with saying I have little to no idea how to play it.

[thirtyseven]

I'd probably try to go DoubleJack-->IGG and then either Provinces or Gardens, depending on how things go. My initial thought though was to be petrified of NB and Thief so open Chancellor/Chancellor! I'm ranked in the high-teens so I don't have as much depth of insight as many here, though.

[paulbaxter]

On 2-5, I think copper IGG is not bad at all. I would definitely take IGG over Witch or Library. A jack on 3 or 4 for the extra silvers and curse trashing (though not estates here), and then push IGGs and gardens to the end.

If gardens run out early, both thief and bureaucrat have their virtues here.

[popsofctown]

IGG over Witch turn one??

[werothegreat]

IGG over Witch turn one??

Absolutely!  Get that Curse in there immediately!

[mnavratil]

IGG over Witch turn one??

Absolutely!  Get that Curse in there immediately!

In most cases Witch is the superior opening; however, in this case I think I would go IGG first due to the presence of gardens.

[qmech]

In most cases Witch is the superior opening; however, in this case I think I would go IGG first due to the presence of gardens.

The simulator agrees with this: Witch first is a small advantage against an IGG rush, but a huge disadvantage if you add Gardens.

Fun fact: if you attempt to Piledrive Witches instead of picking up just one you still win about 1% of your games.

[popsofctown]

Just checking, you simulated a single Witch, not double Witch bot, right?

And this was an enlightening thread.

[qmech]

I added a single Witch buy to the top of the built-in bots for IGG and IGG/Gardens.

[ftl]

Yeah, on this board I'd probably open IGG/Copper, and go IGG/gardens.

The curses are actually secondary. It's a massive gardens game - Thief, IGG, JoAT, Bureaucrat are all good to have. They're all gainers, they gain you coppers or silvers. I'd go Provinces on 8, IGG on 5 or above. Always gain copper with IGG when you have it. Silver at 3.

At $4, there's a tough choice - between Gardens, Bureaucrat, Jack, Thief. If your opponent is also gardening, then gardens on $4 or even on more, try to win the split. If your opponent is not gardening then you have time to build up, so maybe an extra gainer before going for gardens. In >2p, Thief is good. If it's 2p and your opponent greened early, maybe Bureaucrat; Jack if your opponent's gone heavy on the cursers or is ahead of you in IGGs maybe?

Not sure there. But I would definitely open IGG/Copper, and skip witch. That much I'm pretty sure of.

[Jorbles]

Opening Witch actually changes the game a lot. If one player buys a Witch than the Curse pile will run out before the IGG pile does meaning that IGG is much less likely to pile out. On boards where you want to play a longer strategy you might want to buy a Witch over an IGG. I'm not sure that this is that board, but doing it would give you more time to set up a more complex strategy that needs more time to implement.

[thirtyseven]

I disagree, Jorbles. If I want to rush Gardens and 3-pile, I'm going to buy out the IGGs even if the last one or two don't produce Curses.

[Kahryl]

If you're going Duke, Gardens, or Silk Road, you can justify a copper opening just about all the time. Copper is money! Stop hating on it!

[Jorbles]

I disagree, Jorbles. If I want to rush Gardens and 3-pile, I'm going to buy out the IGGs even if the last one or two don't produce Curses.

I don't think it's the best strategy on a Gardens board, but a Witch will almost always extend the length of the game. Here's why:

When you play an IGG game you usually start with a few turns of set up and then you rush IGGs. Then once IGGs and Curses are gone you rush Duchies, ending the game. However, if you or your opponent has a Curser (like a Witch) then the IGGs don't run out with the Curses. If someone keeps going for the IGGs while their opponent picks up points than they fall behind on points and help their opponent end the game faster. You have to go for the points before you pick up IGGs because you don't want to end the game while you are behind. Taking a few turns to buy IGGs while your opponent buys Duchies at the same rate lets them win the Duchy split. You need to go for the points (usually Duchies) and get ahead before trying to buy the IGGs and pile out the game.

Say there's 3 IGGs left (which I think is a more reasonable assumption from a Witch opening than 1 or 2). Once your deck is all full of green cards and Curses buying 3 IGGs is going to take 3 turns if you're lucky, but more often it will take 5 to 7. Only the player who is ahead has an interest in buying the IGGs so only one player will be doing this. The player who is behind is going to prolong the game to try and overtake while the IGG buyer wastes a few turns buying up the last ones.

In a Garden's game this is kindof a moot point because the benefit of the extra Coppers from IGGs vastly outweighs the little bit of extra maneuvering time a Witch buys you, but in a more general sense Cursers do change the dynamics of IGG boards a lot.

What I think is actually the most interesting problem on this board is what to buy at $4. Thief with IGGs gives a big boon to Gardens, but Jack is just so damn strong, Bureaucrat seems inferior to Jack, but Thief v. Jack is an interesting problem here. On top of that you have to time when to buy Gardens. How many IGGs do you want before you get Gardens? How many terminal $4s? If your opponent buys a Gardens do you need to start buying them immediately also?

[ycz6]

Thief v. Jack is an interesting problem here

[werothegreat]

If you're going Duke, Gardens, or Silk Road, you can justify a copper opening just about all the time. Copper is money! Stop hating on it!

I would only open Copper if it were a 5/2 split, there was nothing at $2, there was no way to get rid of my Estates, there are no drawing engines, and Gardens is on the board.

If Silk Road were on the board, I'd rather open Estate than Copper.

[carstimon]

I think opening estate is never a good idea, even on a silk road board.  Maybe estate/ironworks?  I just really don't believe you can recover from that, and it doesn't help you win an important split.  I'd like to be proven wrong though.

I have opened gardens/workshop and won
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120610-152257-35eb7f0f.html
but I think that was just because of my decision to go for duchies instead of estates.

[rinkworks]

If you're going Duke, Gardens, or Silk Road, you can justify a copper opening just about all the time. Copper is money! Stop hating on it!

I would only open Copper if it were a 5/2 split, there was nothing at $2, there was no way to get rid of my Estates, there are no drawing engines, and Gardens is on the board.

If Silk Road were on the board, I'd rather open Estate than Copper.

I believe Horse Traders/Copper is the accepted HT/Duke opening for a 5/2 split.  That might be the only Copper opening I know about (I'm sure there are more I don't know about) that is fairly uncontroversial.  Your Gardens suggestion makes sense too.

But I'm pretty sure opening with an Estate on a Silk Road board is a losing proposition.  Your opponent ought to be able to overtake you later in the race if you do that.

[ehunt]

can't remember if we prefer potion/copper or potion/- to do mustard's native village + apothecary trick

[mnavratil]

can't remember if we prefer potion/copper or potion/- to do mustard's native village + apothecary trick

I'm almost positive that the decision was potion/- came out ahead there, picking up a copper next re-shuffle.