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[O]

I'm mad that I misread you in MIV and MV so I'm going to vote for you here.

I'll accept that.

lol.

You ask for reasons, I provide them, and you go right back to hiding behind your meta.

I wasn't really asking for reasons.

[Lekkit]

Hi, guys, I'm really here. Haven't been posting much since I've had a lot going on, and while I had the time to post, there was a huge discussion about which PR got chosen, how to use the PRs and meta-gaming. Three discussions that I don't think I could've weighed in too much on. I do read everything from my phone. Just so you know.

[Captain_Frisk]

+1 to O / Galz.  Much needed morning laugh.

@Lekkit - who do you find scummy?

[popsofctown]

Oh,
unvote

And btw, my mistakes are scummy.  That doesn't mean I'm actually scum, it means I'm more likely to be scum.

[theorel]

Man, those 6 players make such a huge difference.  This game is much easier to follow than MVI was.

But, we need some real movement here.  C'mon guys, we've got only until Monday 7am.  This is not that far away...weekends tend to be a bit less active.  I know we're getting cool Dark Ages previews and timchen and Galzria have a super-argument going on in MVII...but let's not have day1 end in no-lynch or bad lynch because of it.

Simulator note: I've simulated with tracker now, and the weakest combo is vig/tracker/IC, behind cop/tracker/IC by about 3%.  It comes in at ~40% town wins if you're curious.  Also, if you're curious, skipping day1 lynch costs the random-lynch town about 10% wins.  And it doesn't even depend on getting information from the lynch.  Just in case you thought no lynch was a good idea.

Alright, suspicions time.  Note: this is based on how I've read the thread so far, not going into specifics, or really reviewing just general feelings.  Interested in what others think in all cases.

1. Captain_Frisk - I think I lean town here.  He seems to have generally tried to get the game to move forward.  I'll have to review for any specifics.

2. Eevee - slightly scummy.  Eevee seems ready to jump on anyone when a case is offered.  This could be an attempt to move the town forward, by adding pressure, but it's a scummy way to do it.

3. Galzria - lean town.  I still don't like that Galzria doesn't use his magic wagon-starting powers for the good of the town.  But this seems to be the new Galz.  He's not trolling unlike MVI, so I like this Galz better.  He seems vaguely town.

4. O - lean town.  I think his play style has shifted slightly, but he seems to still troll for laughs.  On the other hand, I think he's actually made a couple good comments amidst the trolling this game.

5. Insomniac - I've got no read.  I know he's posted, even to the point of calling cayvie out when cayvie said he hadn't.  But I'm not sure of anything he's said.

6. cayvie - slight scum.  The mistake in calling out Insomniac, and the pursuing of a policy-lynch on pops both seem scummy to me.

7. Robz888 - null read.  He's been so silent across all games.  He's made a couple posts, but I'm not sure how much content.

8. Lekkit - slight scum.  Seriously lurking hardcore.  Find something to say.

9. timchen - null read.  Other than questioning ehunt and I about how we play scum, I can't think of much he's done.  I think he's been too devoted to MVII to say much here.

10. theorel - I'm so obviously scum, it's just funny you guys haven't figured it out yet.  I mean simulator results? seriously?

11. ehunt - slight town.  He seems like himself.

12. popsofctown - slight town.  Pops tends to read town to me.  Also the post that he actually misinterpreted makes way more sense than the one he was accused of misinterpreting.  I mean the mistake itself could be scummy, but I just don't find it to be.  Also, he seems to be frequently misinterpreted as presenting a stronger case than he actually is, so I empathize with him.

13. yuma - slight scum.  This is really more of a null read.  But I'll put scummy because of the vote on pops.  Of course, that's actually only because I find pops town.  Of course, I'm being hypocritical with my ehunt read, but I don't really know what to expect from yuma.

too many town reads.  If pressed I'd vote for cayvie.

[Galzria]

Hey, point me to scum and I'll start my magic wagon skillz! I just don't know who to work them on. Right now I'm on who I view to be the sunniest ITT, but I'm hardly convinced.

[Eevee]

theorel seems really towny to me, and the least we can do to reward him for all that work is to not lynch him today. Ugh, I wish something happened so I could contribute. The best read I have to offer (other than the one on theorel) is that myself I am town. But I realize that might not be the most helpful thing to say.

[theorel]

@Galz
I don't think anyone else can direct your magic wagons.   And, I don't think they need to point at scum. IMO the value of the wagons you start aren't that they get scum lynched but rather that they get scum to join.  I tried to explain in MVI.  The value of your wagons in MIV wasn't that you were choosing scum, but that scum thought them viable enough to join with scummy reasoning.  From my perspective, that's what wagons are all about.  We get someone to look like a tasty lynch candidate, and the scum jump on it, and then we say, "hold on, that doesn't fit", that's the scumslip.  The trick especially seems to be that you have to actually be convinced that person is scum (in order to trick scum into joining), and then be willing to look past your conviction on the matter to see the scum egging you on.  You managed to do that in MIV day1 (with the jo wagon), but not day2 (the Grujah wagon).  So, maybe in order to use your wagon powers, you have to become convinced that someone is scum...that might be why they stopped working, because you pushed too many town-wagons and lost confidence in yourself.

[Galzria]

Hey, point me to scum and I'll start my magic wagon skillz! I just don't know who to work them on. Right now I'm on who I view to be the sunniest ITT, but I'm hardly convinced.

*grumble* stupid auto correct. I meant SCUMMIEST, not sunniest. O isn't very sunny at all.

[Galzria]

@Galz
I don't think anyone else can direct your magic wagons.   And, I don't think they need to point at scum. IMO the value of the wagons you start aren't that they get scum lynched but rather that they get scum to join.  I tried to explain in MVI.  The value of your wagons in MIV wasn't that you were choosing scum, but that scum thought them viable enough to join with scummy reasoning.  From my perspective, that's what wagons are all about.  We get someone to look like a tasty lynch candidate, and the scum jump on it, and then we say, "hold on, that doesn't fit", that's the scumslip.  The trick especially seems to be that you have to actually be convinced that person is scum (in order to trick scum into joining), and then be willing to look past your conviction on the matter to see the scum egging you on.  You managed to do that in MIV day1 (with the jo wagon), but not day2 (the Grujah wagon).  So, maybe in order to use your wagon powers, you have to become convinced that someone is scum...that might be why they stopped working, because you pushed too many town-wagons and lost confidence in yourself.

That is oddly fascinating analysis and theory. I think I'll have to read it again a few times.

[Robz888]

I'n here, and staying caught up, just very very IRL busy, and other important mafia games, and Dominion previews, and so far there isn't much to comment on.

So, the only thing I can think to analyze at this point is the Pops wagon. And really, it's not much of a wagon. There were technically only 3 people on who weren't Pops himself.

ehunt, I think this is more correct.


theorel (1): Captain_Frisk
popsofctown(4): popsofctown, yuma, Eevee, ehunt
cayvie (1): Insomniac
yuma(1): cayvie

Not voting(6): timchen, yuma, Robz888, Galzria, Lekkit O

With 13 alive it take 7 to lynch.

An interesting thing is that ehunt at least, and possible yuma too, both thought there were 5 people on the wagon, until Grujah corrected the score. I don't know--does anyone see something here? If I add in the fact that I thought both Theorel and Ehunt were doing IIOA (and I don't really mean to knock them for that, because it was a bit of work, and it's useful, but it's just... something that's a no-brainer for the mafia to go ahead and  do for easy town points), I arrive at possibly suspecting ehunt a bit more than everybody else.

[Insomniac]

I'n here, and staying caught up, just very very IRL busy, and other important mafia games, and Dominion previews, and so far there isn't much to comment on.

So, the only thing I can think to analyze at this point is the Pops wagon. And really, it's not much of a wagon. There were technically only 3 people on who weren't Pops himself.

ehunt, I think this is more correct.


theorel (1): Captain_Frisk
popsofctown(4): popsofctown, yuma, Eevee, ehunt
cayvie (1): Insomniac
yuma(1): cayvie

Not voting(6): timchen, yuma, Robz888, Galzria, Lekkit O

With 13 alive it take 7 to lynch.

An interesting thing is that ehunt at least, and possible yuma too, both thought there were 5 people on the wagon, until Grujah corrected the score. I don't know--does anyone see something here? If I add in the fact that I thought both Theorel and Ehunt were doing IIOA (and I don't really mean to knock them for that, because it was a bit of work, and it's useful, but it's just... something that's a no-brainer for the mafia to go ahead and  do for easy town points), I arrive at possibly suspecting ehunt a bit more than everybody else.

Vote: Eevee

Eevee has defended ehunt, and theorel AND he was on the pops wagon.

[Eevee]

theorel has done his fair share of analysis on top of providing us that information. I dont regret defending him one bit. I'm not saying he couldnt be scum, but  clearly he has been the most pro-town player here today.

[Galzria]

theorel has done his fair share of analysis on top of providing us that information. I dont regret defending him one bit. I'm not saying he couldnt be scum, but  clearly he has been the most pro-town player here today.

You always think IIOA is a towntell though.

[Eevee]

theorel has done his fair share of analysis on top of providing us that information. I dont regret defending him one bit. I'm not saying he couldnt be scum, but  clearly he has been the most pro-town player here today.

You always think IIOA is a towntell though.

That might be true. But I mean in theorels case, he has also done analysis so how can you blame him?

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - it does look like eevee is trying to buddy theorel - but because I found the simulation results fascinating I'm willing to give him a pass.  I'm waiting for someone to start mafiastrategy.com

I'm tempted to vote: ehunt - but we're out of RVS now - and I'm not sure I can handle another kickball story.

I'd still like to hear more from Lekkit (lurker) and timchen(distracted).  I know that tim's other game is going crazy now - but it would still be nice to have his rather unique take on the game thus far.

[ehunt]

I promise no kickball stories if I'm in jeopardy!

My only defense of jumping on the pops wagon will be: I didn't know how big it was, I knew it wasn't near L - 1 (it wasn't), I unvoted temporarily when I realized it could be out of control (but revoted shortly thereafter), even when it was at L - 2, it was fake L - 2 because he was on it. I think that's the only case against me (since Frisk said he had a town read on me before I did that), and I think it's not a good one.

unvote pops per other people's town reads and because I appreciate his not posting tersely upon replying to me.

I do not share the opinion that cayvie is scummy. I don't really think anyone is that scummy because there's basically been nothing to go off of. I'm reading lekkit's lurking a lot like zkc in MVI, i.e., i think it's a townie who genuinely doesn't know how horrible it is to town that he's not saying anything. I also think that eevee is playing very similarly to MVI (jumping on wagons, being overly agreeable) and eevee flipped town there. I think the only person whom theorel and I agree is scummy is yuma, but it's basically a null read for me too. I am more suspicious of at least one of the pair of Galzria and O than theorel.

[ehunt]

i meant to unvote in bold, not in spoiler tags!

[ehunt]

(i mean, i am more suspicious of the pair than theorel is of the pair. i have a light town read on theorel.)

[ehunt]

@robz accuses me of IIOA, this is frustrating. the programming is certainly IIOA (which I freely admitted) but i also have lots of posts with, you know, analysis.

Robz, on the other hand, has posted nothing. I don't think hypocrisy is a scum tell, I'm just annoyed.

[ehunt]

(the point is: the reason IIOA is bad is because you can basically pseudo-lurk. if someone posts IIOA and also posts analysis, that's not a scum tell.)

[cayvie]

The mystery of your gender will haunt me at my sleep (what a weird thing to say).

Good answers though, in the spirit of RVS, let me Vote: Captain Frisk too. I recall him liking to force claims out of people with unnecessary pressure.

..in all seriousness I hope this doesnt get that far. Unless cayvie's hunch was correct and we are actually nailing a mafia.

Upon rereading, this post from way back on page 4 sets off alarm bells for me.

vote: Eevee

It reads, well, like he's trying to sound like he's participating without actually participating.

[Captain_Frisk]

The mystery of your gender will haunt me at my sleep (what a weird thing to say).

Good answers though, in the spirit of RVS, let me Vote: Captain Frisk too. I recall him liking to force claims out of people with unnecessary pressure.

..in all seriousness I hope this doesnt get that far. Unless cayvie's hunch was correct and we are actually nailing a mafia.

Upon rereading, this post from way back on page 4 sets off alarm bells for me.

vote: Eevee

It reads, well, like he's trying to sound like he's participating without actually participating.

I thought you liked voting for me in a non random manner?  What happened?

[Eevee]

I dont think I've ever voted for you? Quite the contrary actually!

[O]

I dont think I've ever voted for you? Quite the contrary actually!

The mystery of your gender will haunt me at my sleep (what a weird thing to say).

Good answers though, in the spirit of RVS, let me Vote: Captain Frisk too. I recall him liking to force claims out of people with unnecessary pressure.

..in all seriousness I hope this doesnt get that far. Unless cayvie's hunch was correct and we are actually nailing a mafia.

What is this I don't even