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[engineer]

Cellar, Chapel, Village, Woodcutter, Moneylender, Smithy, Spy, Library, Market, Mine.

(Yes, these are all base set cards.  This was a RL game with new people, so I didn't want to overwhelm them.)  I opened 2/5 and figured I'd go for chapel/library with aggressive trashing.  It worked ok, but far from optimal.  My friend bought libraries and a moneylender and won by a point.  It was a fun game, but neither strategy was great, so I thought I'd analyze it further to see what I should have done.

Using the simulators, the best strategy I can find is BM Library.  That is sooooo boring.  BM library beats any chapel combo I can find, and beats a village/smithy chain with chapel support.  The closest I could get to parity was a Chapel/Mine combo with aggressive trashing, and a cellar thrown in at the end.  Even that strategy loses 60/40 to BM Library. 

Now, I'm no expert with the simulators, so maybe I'm missing something.  Maybe I just missed a good strategy -- I'm fairly new at the game.  Please, somebody show me a strategy that beats BM Library on this board!

[eHalcyon]

Eh.  Base set alone is very BM-centric.  If you want epic combos, you're going to need to throw in some expansions.

[Morgrim7]

Iibrary or Smithy BM.

[engineer]

Well BM Library beats BM Smithy because of the collision prevention.  But I guess you guys are confirming that there isn't an obvious strategy on here that beats BM Library.  I guess I'll just always go BM when using the main set.  That's kind of a BuMmer. 

Oh well, I guess Donald meant it when he said the expansions aren't really expansions -- they're really a requirement for interesting games.

[ftl]

On 2/5 I'd probably open Cellar/Library. They make a nice combo - cellar a bunch of cards to find your library more often, and they can't ever even clash, since Library can set aside cellar.  Possibly end up with an extra one of either one or the other or both later.

BM-library would obviously beat bm+smithy if you start 2/5, but getting an early smithy is better if you start 4/3.

I wouldn't say that you should always go BM in the main set. It is pretty common though. If this set had either Militia or Witch instead of Woodcutter, Moneylender, Smithy, Spy, Market, or Mine, it would instantly become an engine board.

[engineer]

Chapel/Witch obviously destroys BM Library, but I can't build a militia strategy that comes close.  This makes sense, because militia is almost helpful to library -- discard your green, draw extra cards.  So I guess if militia were on the board, I'd still go BM library.  But witch is definitely a game changer as usual.

[DG]

For 5/2 you can work hard with a mine, cellar, spies, and markets to get something probably equal to smithy+treasures.

[popsofctown]

I added just Hinterlands, and the game is still pretty BM centric :/

[michaeljb]

I added just Hinterlands, and the game is still pretty BM centric :/

You're kidding, right?

Border Village, Scheme, Cartographer, Tunnel, Spice Merchant, Crossroads, Margrave, Oasis, Haggler, Highway, Inn, Stables

[blueblimp]

I added just Hinterlands, and the game is still pretty BM centric :/

You're kidding, right?

Border Village, Scheme, Cartographer, Tunnel, Spice Merchant, Crossroads, Margrave, Oasis, Haggler, Highway, Inn, Stables

I find heavy-Hinterlands sets to be pretty BM-friendly. A lot of these cards help engines, but mostly as support. Meanwhile, cards like Fool's Gold, Jack of all Trades, Embassy and Ill-Gotten Gains tend to force treasure-oriented play.

[michaeljb]

I added just Hinterlands, and the game is still pretty BM centric :/

You're kidding, right?

Border Village, Scheme, Cartographer, Tunnel, Spice Merchant, Crossroads, Margrave, Oasis, Haggler, Highway, Inn, Stables

I find heavy-Hinterlands sets to be pretty BM-friendly. A lot of these cards help engines, but mostly as support. Meanwhile, cards like Fool's Gold, Jack of all Trades, Embassy and Ill-Gotten Gains tend to force treasure-oriented play.

That's true about those cards...perhaps my perspective has been tainted by having only played Hinterlands with all the other sets. Even IRL I've rarely played with 3 or less expansions at a time.

[HiveMindEmulator]

The problem is that to beat good terminal draw + money, you need one or more of the following:
1. Attacks to slow it down
2. Alternate sources of VPs to allow you to win with 3 or fewer Provinces
3. Some sort of workshop-type card to help you build your engine faster.

Since here the only attack is Spy, and there are no alt VPs and no workshops, you're probably not going to be able to build a strong engine fast enough.

[Geronimoo]

As suggested by DG, the Mine/Cellar opening beats Smithy BM by a small margin. Market and Spies will help to create something enginy. If you look hard enough and play tight there's almost always an engine that beats Big Money even in base Dominion.

remember to let this bot open $5/$2:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Mine/Cellar"
 author="Geronimoo"
 description="">
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Mine">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Mine"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market"/>
   <buy name="Spy"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Cellar">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Cellar"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Province"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>


[eHalcyon]

Does it beat Library BM?

[Geronimoo]

If the Big Money deck opens $5/$2 it'll lose harder against the Mine engine because it can't open Silver even though Library is a stronger drawer than Smithy.

[Robz888]

I added just Hinterlands, and the game is still pretty BM centric :/

You're kidding, right?

Border Village, Scheme, Cartographer, Tunnel, Spice Merchant, Crossroads, Margrave, Oasis, Haggler, Highway, Inn, Stables

My feeling is that compared to previous sets, Hinterlands does give a boost to Big Money strategies. It is arguably the first expansion to do so, as all the others decreased the viability of a the Big Money strategy inherent in the Base game. Part of this is just a boost to alt-VP strategies, which favor money over engine more often than conventional Province games.

[WheresMyElephant]

Iibrary or Smithy BM.

Well BM Library beats BM Smithy because of the collision prevention.  But I guess you guys are confirming that there isn't an obvious strategy on here that beats BM Library. 

Pure BM/Library may be better than pure BM/Smithy in abstract terms. But if you can't afford your first Library by turn 4 at the latest, you should probably take a Smithy in its place, no?

[engineer]

As suggested by DG, the Mine/Cellar opening beats Smithy BM by a small margin. Market and Spies will help to create something enginy. If you look hard enough and play tight there's almost always an engine that beats Big Money even in base Dominion.

Wow, thanks Geronimoo!  That's exactly what I was looking for.  Being relatively new to the game, I just assumed that the chapel would be an integral part of the dominant engine-based strategy whenever it's available. 

I also just read your article about building an engine on game #1, and now I'm dying to try it out on my friends.  We've all been convinced that BM is the best strategy in all base set games without the witch.  I'm pleased to see that this game continues to reveal depth as I learn/play more.

On an unrelated note, I've noticed a possible bug in your simulator.  When I was playing with Chapel/Mine, I noticed that the bot trashes the Chapel with the Mine, gaining a gold.  I'll post a report of it in a new thread when I have a chance.