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[Morgrim7]

Wasn't there a thread about this?

[Jive Junkie]

Governor: ridiculously overrated

Can you explain?

I've been finding that spamming Governor (for Gold) keeps winning me games, especially if my opponent doesn't value the card as much. The ability to get double Province turns ridiculously early is pretty spectacular. Of course you can only safely use the +3 cards on the last turn, but that should be a double (or even triple) Province turn to close it out. I will do +3 cards earlier if I'm reasonably confident it will be a double Province turn and my opponent doesn't have an engine that can match that, even with an extra card.

And this route to victory is fast - in the absence of cursers, the games end around turns 11-14 with a majority of Provinces gained.


To answer the OP: I think Navigator may be slightly underrated. It's pretty nice in a heavy attack and deck clutter game with no good trashing available. The $4 price tag is just right in that environment, as $5+ can be difficult to reach. With bulky decks filled with crap, the +$2 is also pretty nice, and the ability to discard the next hand of (Curse, Curse, Copper, Copper, Estate) can be a virtual extra turn. Might make the difference in a low-money game that's going to end on piles, giving you an extra shot at those Gardens/Duchies/Islands/Tunnels.

And speaking of Tunnel, Navigator is one of the best enablers. But note I do still think it's a pretty bad card, just not *that* bad.

[Coone]

I'm not sure how a card which is so powerful that getting a combo with it off first wins the game would be overrated.

Well I'm not saying its power is overrated at all.  I'm saying its effect on game play is overrated.  People rightfully say it can make ridiculous combos, but more than likely these combos are going to be connected by luck rather than cleverly crafted foresight  Thus two equally skilled players can be playing equally viable strategies, but the first to hit kings court will win by a landslide instead of winning by a turn.

But... that IS an enormous effect on gameplay. Like if you had a card just like treasure map, but instead of getting four golds on deck, you just won the game outright, then that's a really strong card with a really big effect on gameplay, even though it's really swingy.

I guess you are saying that you think it's increasing of the amount of fun (or maybe skill) in the game is not so high, but on the skill front, it is consistently ranked one of the few swingiest cards, and on the fun front, well, different people like different things.

Well, ya, kind of.  If you had a card that won you the game outright, in terms of power it would not be overrated and in terms of effect on gameplay (lets say this card costs 25 $) it would not be overrated because it inspires a whole new strategy to victory. But in terms of it's overall effect on the game, it's probably just increasing the amount of luck (who can hit the win-card first) prevalent in the game.  Now of course Dominion by definition of being a card game is a game where luck will be prevalent, but this only means (in my opinion), that the more interesting cards would be those that allowed for more carefully crafted strategies.

[methods of rationality]

Governor: ridiculously overrated

Can you explain?

I've been finding that spamming Governor (for Gold) keeps winning me games, especially if my opponent doesn't value the card as much. The ability to get double Province turns ridiculously early is pretty spectacular. Of course you can only safely use the +3 cards on the last turn, but that should be a double (or even triple) Province turn to close it out. I will do +3 cards earlier if I'm reasonably confident it will be a double Province turn and my opponent doesn't have an engine that can match that, even with an extra card.

And this route to victory is fast - in the absence of cursers, the games end around turns 11-14 with a majority of Provinces gained.

So here's how I see it. Lets say that in a game where both people are going governor you can get most of the provinces in 12 or 13 turns. Remember that your opponent's Governor is helping you get there since he's giving you free silvers to buy governors or provinces or to be remodeled into governors. Without your opponent's help you could probably only do it in around 14 turns or more. (Try it on solitaire if you don't believe me, and if you manage to consistently do it in 12 turns without help, please post links since I would want ti see how you did it) So 14 turns to the majority of the provinces is like a mediocre big money strategy. Except now you have the disadvantage that your helping your opponent get to 5 provinces in 13 turns. So I usually skip Governor without support as long as there is some alternative. The other thing is that in a really fast, 11 turn game, second player is at a huge disadvantage. So going second, its probably in your interest to skip Governor and thus lengthen the game a bit.  I guess though, for the same reason it might be a particularly good idea to go for governor when playing first. But if your opponent doesn't follow, it won't shorten the game nearly as much. It does prevent you from going alt vp though, since your opponent doesn't have to worry about his governors helping you since the things that governors give you only really help for provinces. See also WW's comments here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2878.25 where he says Governor spamming is roughly on par with smithy big money, among other things

[Jive Junkie]

Governor: ridiculously overrated

Can you explain?

I've been finding that spamming Governor (for Gold) keeps winning me games, especially if my opponent doesn't value the card as much. The ability to get double Province turns ridiculously early is pretty spectacular. Of course you can only safely use the +3 cards on the last turn, but that should be a double (or even triple) Province turn to close it out. I will do +3 cards earlier if I'm reasonably confident it will be a double Province turn and my opponent doesn't have an engine that can match that, even with an extra card.

And this route to victory is fast - in the absence of cursers, the games end around turns 11-14 with a majority of Provinces gained.

So here's how I see it. Lets say that in a game where both people are going governor you can get most of the provinces in 12 or 13 turns. Remember that your opponent's Governor is helping you get there since he's giving you free silvers to buy governors or provinces or to be remodeled into governors. Without your opponent's help you could probably only do it in around 14 turns or more. (Try it on solitaire if you don't believe me, and if you manage to consistently do it in 12 turns without help, please post links since I would want ti see how you did it) So 14 turns to the majority of the provinces is like a mediocre big money strategy. Except now you have the disadvantage that your helping your opponent get to 5 provinces in 13 turns. So I usually skip Governor without support as long as there is some alternative. The other thing is that in a really fast, 11 turn game, second player is at a huge disadvantage. So going second, its probably in your interest to skip Governor and thus lengthen the game a bit.  I guess though, for the same reason it might be a particularly good idea to go for governor when playing first. But if your opponent doesn't follow, it won't shorten the game nearly as much. It does prevent you from going alt vp though, since your opponent doesn't have to worry about his governors helping you since the things that governors give you only really help for provinces. See also WW's comments here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2878.25 where he says Governor spamming is roughly on par with smithy big money, among other things

Hot damn, but you've given me some food for thought! I'm always so impressed when I get 6 Provinces by turn 12 with Governor, but I never seriously stopped to consider that perhaps a lot of that is due to my opponent sometimes gifting me free Silvers.

However, it seems like if you even get 1-2 Governors, you'll be at a serious disadvantage against the guy 4-8 Governors. I'm usually the guy with 4-8, and it doesn't end well for the 1-2 fella.

But getting 0 Governors vs. someone who's getting a lot of them... Well maybe I'll try that out one of these games...

Incidentally, I found it really interesting in WW's games, he noticed the Governor player having better success using the +3 cards option more. I love these moments when my whole perspective on a card teeters on the balance!

[NoMoreFun]

I don't think Spy is underrated, but I recently played a game where we both went for ghost ships, and his spies absolutely wrecked my strategy whenever I got hit with a ghost ship (to the point where I struggled to buy silvers), and allowed him to cycle his deck much faster no matter how many ghost ships I hit him with. Spy could definitely do with a much lower cost or stronger effect, but that was the first time I noticed the card having a use.

[chwhite]

I don't think Spy is underrated, but I recently played a game where we both went for ghost ships, and his spies absolutely wrecked my strategy whenever I got hit with a ghost ship (to the point where I struggled to buy silvers), and allowed him to cycle his deck much faster no matter how many ghost ships I hit him with. Spy could definitely do with a much lower cost or stronger effect, but that was the first time I noticed the card having a use.

Spy is never going to be the centerpiece of your strategy, but it's good support for a whole variety of heavy chaining strategies.  Goons, Conspirator, Scrying Pool, Vineyard, Swindler/Sab, stuff like that.  I think it is definitely underrated.

[DG]

Spy could definitely do with a much lower cost or stronger effect, but that was the first time I noticed the card having a use.

Spy is arguably one of those cards that is better value at cost 4 than cost 3 (but not if you only look at the base set).

[chwhite]

Spy could definitely do with a much lower cost or stronger effect, but that was the first time I noticed the card having a use.

Spy is arguably one of those cards that is better value at cost 4 than cost 3 (but not if you only look at the base set).

I think it's quite possible that no card is as ill-suited to its set as Spy is to Base.  It's wordy and bad with Big Money, both strikes against it.  (Well, actually, Explorer is a similarly bad fit for Seaside; it might work better in Hinterlands or something.)

Spy really should've been in Intrigue: it's an attack with choices (so, on-theme), and is pretty useful as support for many Intrigue cards: Swindler, Sab, Minion, Conspirator, Ironworks are all cards that work well with Spy.

I don't see how that having it cost $4 rather than $3 really helps it all that much, except maybe you can Ironworks it painlessly and then trash it for benefit with Apprentice/Salvager, but that's really kinda niche.

[AJD]

Spy could definitely do with a much lower cost or stronger effect, but that was the first time I noticed the card having a use.

Spy is arguably one of those cards that is better value at cost 4 than cost 3 (but not if you only look at the base set).

I think it's quite possible that no card is as ill-suited to its set as Spy is to Base.  It's wordy and bad with Big Money, both strikes against it.  (Well, actually, Explorer is a similarly bad fit for Seaside; it might work better in Hinterlands or something.)

I agree with you about Spy being a better fit for Intrigue, but I think Philosopher's Stone is a way worse fit for Alchemy than Spy is for the basic set. (Recall Philosopher's Stone was originally going to be Bank, which works much better in Alchemy.)

Also, Hinterlands doesn't need Explorer; it already has Jack and Trader.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't think Explorer is a bad fit for Seaside. It's a weak card, but it doesn't really fit better in any other set. Seaside is the set with cards that are most likely to allow you to draw your whole deck a can afford to expand it, and I think that's probably where Explorer is most useful.

[jonts26]

I think explorer would be best in the Base set. Gain a card to hand is still pretty vanilla and it's a decent big money enabler.

[Robz888]

Spy could definitely do with a much lower cost or stronger effect, but that was the first time I noticed the card having a use.

Spy is arguably one of those cards that is better value at cost 4 than cost 3 (but not if you only look at the base set).

I think it's quite possible that no card is as ill-suited to its set as Spy is to Base.  It's wordy and bad with Big Money, both strikes against it.  (Well, actually, Explorer is a similarly bad fit for Seaside; it might work better in Hinterlands or something.)

I agree with you about Spy being a better fit for Intrigue, but I think Philosopher's Stone is a way worse fit for Alchemy than Spy is for the basic set. (Recall Philosopher's Stone was originally going to be Bank, which works much better in Alchemy.)

Also, Hinterlands doesn't need Explorer; it already has Jack and Trader.

And Haggler. Haggler does at least everything Explorer does, most of the time.

[NoMoreFun]

I think explorer would be best in the Base set. Gain a card to hand is still pretty vanilla and it's a decent big money enabler.

Always thought it made more sense than Mine and Bureaucrat.

[BMan]

Possession = seriously overrated, without just the right engine. It essentially costs as much as a province!

[Eevee]

Possession = seriously overrated, without just the right engine. It essentially costs as much as a province!

It is known.

[Lekkit]

The thing is, it is known that Possession is basically costed the same as a Province. To those that read stuff online. And really good offline only players (but those are really rare). Among new players or players that don't really think about the theory behind the game (not talking about the admin here, because we all think about him, right?) Possession don't seem like a card that's priced the same as Province. It's a card that's priced like a Gold, adding a Potion. So I'd actually say Possession is overrated among newer players and lower level ones.

[enquerencia]

Posession IS an overrated card.  But when you're playing a newb, don't forget it's there.  I made that mistake recently and had just created and engine that could buy 1-3 provinces per turn and bought two provinces on my first greening turn.  But my opponent bought a posession on the turn after that, and on my next turn I could only buy one province.  On my opponents next turn he got perfect shuffle luck and played the posession and bought a province.  Then he used my engine and salvaged two of my provinces and bought out the remaining five four (I'm not good at math) provinces and a Duchy. 

It's swingy.

I just played Dark Ages for the first time today, and I think I'd have to say Madman is a tad overrated.  Ruins in general sound a lot worse than they are.  Counterfeit is possibly underrated just because it's seriously awesome and I'm not sure how many people know that.  Squire didn't seem as awesome as I expected.  Cultist is overrated for the same reason that Ruins are underrated (if that's the right word), and I found opening with Forager and Market Square was a solid opening, making me feel that I personally underrated both of those cards when I first read them.

[RiemannZetaJones]

Is Mining Village underrated? It doesn't seem to score very highly on the lists of the best $4 cards, but as a cantrip one-shot $2 it's a great accelerant for all kinds of decks.

[werothegreat]

Is Mining Village underrated? It doesn't seem to score very highly on the lists of the best $4 cards, but as a cantrip one-shot $2 it's a great accelerant for all kinds of decks.

I mainly buy Mining Village because I need a Village, and only ever really trash them in the end-game when I want to run through the Provinces in a super turn.

[brokoli]

Possession is overrated by newbies, but seriously underrated by a lot of players in this forum. When you buy one, you are probably missing a province. But possession is possession. If you take it early enough, you'll get at least two provinces from your opponent's hand.
It's the 3d worst card on Qvist's ranking, and that is a huge mistake. It's simply so much better than Golem and Alchemist (even if more expensive). This card is not fairly ranked because a lot of players hate it.