Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Graystripe77]

Merchant Banker: $4
Action/Duration
+$4
--
At the start of your next turn, discard a card.

I already introduced this card a while ago, and it hasn't changed at all. It seemed a bit powerful at first, but then I started testing it. So far, it seems perfect.

Thoughts?

[LastFootnote]

Yeah, I remember this. It still seems like it should be too powerful, but you're the one who has playtested it.

Have you ever bought it and lost to an opponent who didn't buy it?

[Rush_Clasic]

The best comparison I can see is to Moneylender, which is a bit tougher to use but thins your deck. I think your card wants +$3 instead; going back to the comparison, your card boosts money by $2 more, which seems like a lot for a starting $4 cost card. Have you tested it at $3? If so, did it seem too weak?

[Kelume]

I kind of like it. Baron, but without the chance it won't connect and without the buy (which is significant).

Seems like it would get $6-7 cards too reliably however. Fishing Village + this card gets a turn 3 or 4 goons something like 70-80% of the time and from there you're set to win forever. Plus the swing between how strong this is when you are or are not hit by a Militia is astronomical.

Seems like it would be a bit much in BM as well - nearly a Platinum with almost no downside (except collision).

That said I don't think it is too strong so as not to be fun to use, and it has good synergies.

[rinkworks]

I'm basically certain that's too strong.  The card loss next turn is not all that significant, as usually you'll have a green card to dispose of (think how often Militia doesn't hurt).  In exchange, you're getting more money than ANY official card can guarantee you, regardless of its price.  The comparison to Baron is a good one, but Baron is uncertain on the second shuffle and usually a dead card in the midgame and beyond.  Moneylender is a lot less comparable, since it only nets you +$2, but there again it is uncertain to hit later on in the game.  By contrast, Merchant Banker steamrolls through the end game, where the penalty is all the more likely to be no penalty at all (due to the prevalence of green cards) and but guarantees at least a Duchy buy.

The best comparison is probably to Horse Traders (just the top half), which also exchanges money for discards.  But Horse Traders demands two cards of your current hand, rather than one of your next (clustering your resources is generally better than smoothing them evenly), and still only offers +$3 (and a Buy, but a Buy is less significant than $1 in terms of price balancing:  compare Worker's Village to Bazaar).

Drop the bonus down to +$3, and I think you have a fine $5 card.

[Kelume]

Mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I think $4 would be a fair price if it gave $3; I don't think it would be worthwhile as a $5 unless the bonus was $4 (at which point it's competing with Mountebank). Even at $4 for $4, it could be fun. Very strong, but then, we have other cards which are clearly stronger than others (hello Fishing Village) and they are sometimes the most fun. It has a number of downsides:

-Early on in the game, it will miss the reshuffle often since it is a duration.
-Deck-drawing engines will get the benefit only once per two turns.
-It's extremely handicapping when a discard attack is on the board.
-It's weak in multiples.

I do think it could use some kind of tweak for BM. Perhaps "Discard a Treasure or discard two cards" to actually impact future buying power. Otherwise, while it is very strong, as I mentioned before, I still think it could be fun.

[rinkworks]

Mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I think $4 would be a fair price if it gave $3; I don't think it would be worthwhile as a $5 unless the bonus was $4 (at which point it's competing with Mountebank).

An increase of +$1 bonus is worth about a $3 increase in cost (Copper vs. Silver; Silver vs. Gold).  The cost scale isn't strictly linear, so sometimes you can squeeze the gap to $2 (Village vs. Bazaar), but there is no way that +$3 for $4 and +$4 for $5 can BOTH be balanced.

I had said that with a +$3 bonus, I think it would be a balanced $5 card.  Left unsaid was that I'm pretty sure the +$4 version is a $7.5 card.  I mean, it's not even close.

[One Armed Man]

I don't think it giving +$3 or +$4 solves the essential issue: This card is powerful for non-trashed BM when opponents don't have hand-size attacks, and it is useless when they do.
Minion, Margrave, Militia, Ghost Ship, Cutpurse, Goons, and Followers shut down this card hard. Torturer could by an exception. Does the card need a change because of this? Probably not, other cards are made useless by hand-size attacks (Cellar, Inn, Vault). If you really want to make this a counter to instead of being shutdown by these attacks, this card could have a discard down to 3 ability.

What is worth considering is when these cards aren't around. This is one of the best money terminals, except for Merchant ship (I like dividing the money between turns except in Colony games).

Rinkworks, adding a +$1 is not a flat increase in value of $3. A Workshop that gained $1 would probably still only be worth $4. $2-4 and $5-7 have a huge gap between them and a much smaller gap among them.

Rules note: What order would you get things if you had both this and a Wharf out?

"+$3, +1 buy" would likely be an interesting version.
"+$4, discard a card." would make an interesting version, too. Either version would keep the Duration ability.

[AJD]

Rules note: What order would you get things if you had both this and a Wharf out?

Player's choice. Old durations are considered to activate simultaneously; and simultaneously means player chooses.

[rinkworks]

I don't think it giving +$3 or +$4 solves the essential issue: This card is powerful for non-trashed BM when opponents don't have hand-size attacks, and it is useless when they do.
Minion, Margrave, Militia, Ghost Ship, Cutpurse, Goons, and Followers shut down this card hard.

How do you mean?  I'm not sure I totally agree with this.  I assume the reasoning is that it could turn your next turn into a 2-card hand instead of a 3-card hand.  Well, Tactician turns your current turn into a 0-card hand, and that's still worth playing.  Basically it's worth cannibalizing one turn if you can get enough of a boost out of the other.  And with +$4 from a single card on that first turn, you can.  No other Dominion card can guarantee +$4 on a single turn (without cannibalizing the rest of the turn, like Vault and Secret Chamber).  Even if that first turn is attacked, Merchant Banker-Copper-Copper gets you a Gold, lucrative for a 5-card turn let alone a 3-card turn.

As for that 2-card turn, it's a far cry from a 0-card turn.  You'd still have your two strongest cards (as opposed to average cards, which is why Militia'ed turns tend to be way better than Outpost turns), and with a +$4 earner in your deck, having $5 and $6 cards in your deck is likely.  Mountebank + Gold?  Library + anything?  Best case scenarios, admittedly, but my point is that Tactician costs more, penalizes you more, and makes no guarantees on what the "good" turn will get you.

Rinkworks, adding a +$1 is not a flat increase in value of $3. A Workshop that gained $1 would probably still only be worth $4. $2-4 and $5-7 have a huge gap between them and a much smaller gap among them.

I acknowledged that the cost scale isn't linear.  The higher the price, the larger the gap.  However, this is also true of how many coins a card gives you.  There's not a lot of difference between +$0 and +$1, because a terminal +$1 is still a terminal Copper, insufficient for building your economy beyond the $1.6 per card needed to get a Province.  In other words, giving Workshop a +$1 still doesn't help you boost your economy to Province-buying levels.

It's different when you throw a coin onto Village to make a Bazaar -- because that's a cantrip, and it consumes neither space in your hand nor an Action to play.  In other words, it always raises your average card value.  If your deck was nothing but Platinums, making an average card value of $5, adding in a Bazaar will still raise your average card value, because what that Bazaar is worth is not just $1 but $1 plus whatever the card draw will give you on average -- which is $5!

Now, we are admittedly not talking about a cantrip here.  But we ARE talking about +$ levels far beyond the $1.6-per-card threshold for building your economy.  Above that threshold, additional coins become a huge deal.  +$1 and +$2 is a massively larger jump than +$0 to +$1.  It's why we have a lot of terminal Silvers and not so many terminal Coppers.  Terminal Silvers build your economy and work toward Province-buying power.  Terminal Coppers don't.  It's also why we don't have very many terminal Golds -- the jump from +$2 and +$3 is massive and would be overpowered in normal contexts.  At +$4, we're at stratospheric levels of income.  You'd need a stratospheric penalty to justify it.  "Discard a card next turn" is just about the weakest penalty possible, so often not a penalty at all.

Let's compare to Mandarin, a terminal $3.  It's tough to compare, because the on-gain effect is a weird thing.  But once it's in your deck, it's a terminal $3 (worse than $4) that drops a card from this turn (worse than next turn) by putting a card on your deck (much worse than discarding) and costs $5 (more expensive).

However much you think Mandarin's on-gain ability affects its power level, does it really compensate for ALL of those things?

Rules note: What order would you get things if you had both this and a Wharf out?

You'd get to choose the order in which you resolve the "next turn" abilities of any Duration cards in play.

[One Armed Man]

How do you mean?  I'm not sure I totally agree with this.  I assume the reasoning is that it could turn your next turn into a 2-card hand instead of a 3-card hand.  Well, Tactician turns your current turn into a 0-card hand, and that's still worth playing.  Basically it's worth cannibalizing one turn if you can get enough of a boost out of the other.  And with +$4 from a single card on that first turn, you can.  No other Dominion card can guarantee +$4 on a single turn (without cannibalizing the rest of the turn, like Vault and Secret Chamber).  Even if that first turn is attacked, Merchant Banker-Copper-Copper gets you a Gold, lucrative for a 5-card turn let alone a 3-card turn.

What I was saying is that there is a huge difference between getting the hand-size attack on the turn before you play Merchant Banker and the turn afterwords. Discarding the 3rd best card in your hand is way worse than discarding the worst card. The third best card often costs $3 or $4 after the first 2 reshuffles.
A 2-card hand is awful in all but a couple circumstances: (1) When you have a direct counter like a "draw-up-to" card, Tactician or Menagerie, (2) When you have a gainer, or (3) when your entire hand was bad. Having Gold-Silver or better happens most when you would rather be starting to green.

As for that 2-card turn, it's a far cry from a 0-card turn.  You'd still have your two strongest cards (as opposed to average cards, which is why Militia'ed turns tend to be way better than Outpost turns), and with a +$4 earner in your deck, having $5 and $6 cards in your deck is likely.  Mountebank + Gold?  Library + anything?  Best case scenarios, admittedly, but my point is that Tactician costs more, penalizes you more, and makes no guarantees on what the "good" turn will get you.

Tactician has a penalty, but the best uses of the card are when (1) you get to use the cards in your hand anyway (Secret Chamber/Vault, gainers, virtual $), and/or (2) when having a ridiculously large hand is the goal (Bridge megaturns, Forge, Cellar, Secret Chamber/Vault, Mountebank, FG, Conspirator). If you often just use it to draw 3 extra coppers and 2 estates (one of the only ways it can be worse than +3 coin, +1 buy), the card isn't being used properly or it is too early in the game to use it properly.

I acknowledged that the cost scale isn't linear.  The higher the price, the larger the gap.  However, this is also true of how many coins a card gives you.  There's not a lot of difference between +$0 and +$1, because a terminal +$1 is still a terminal Copper, insufficient for building your economy beyond the $1.6 per card needed to get a Province.  In other words, giving Workshop a +$1 still doesn't help you boost your economy to Province-buying levels.

It's different when you throw a coin onto Village to make a Bazaar -- because that's a cantrip, and it consumes neither space in your hand nor an Action to play.  In other words, it always raises your average card value.  If your deck was nothing but Platinums, making an average card value of $5, adding in a Bazaar will still raise your average card value, because what that Bazaar is worth is not just $1 but $1 plus whatever the card draw will give you on average -- which is $5!

Now, we are admittedly not talking about a cantrip here.  But we ARE talking about +$ levels far beyond the $1.6-per-card threshold for building your economy.  Which means that the difference between +$1 and +$2 is a massively larger jump than +$0 to +$1.  It's why we have a lot of terminal Silvers and not so many terminal Coppers.  Terminal Silvers build your economy and work toward Province-buying power.  Terminal Coppers don't.  It's also why we don't have very many terminal Golds -- the jump from +$2 and +$3 is massive and would be overpowered in normal contexts.  At +$4, we're at stratospheric levels of income.  You'd need a stratospheric penalty to justify it.  "Discard a card next turn" is just about the weakest penalty possible, so often not a penalty at all.

The cantrip cost thing is very interesting. That is probably why Grand Market is more superior to Market than Gold is to Silver.
Discard a card this turn is a weaker penalty. You can get cards to discard by playing card draw (including cantrips) first. You can discard terminals you know you can't use as opposed to ones you aren't sure you can't use (because you can draw Villages with your cantrips).

Let's compare to Mandarin, a terminal $3.  It's tough to compare, because the on-gain effect is a weird thing.  But once it's in your deck, it's a terminal $3 (worse than $4) that drops a card from this turn (worse than next turn) by putting a card on your deck (much worse than discarding) and costs $5 (more expensive).

However much you think Mandarin's on-gain ability affects its power level, does it really compensate for ALL of those things?

Mandarin's put a card on top thing can be a big help, unlike discarding. I have top-deck enough golds, silvers, and terminals to win with them to know that.
Anyway, I don't think the card is good as-is. I would consider it much better if you discarded a card both turns and it only gave +$3 and a +1 buy.

[Kelume]

Let's compare to Mandarin, a terminal $3.  It's tough to compare, because the on-gain effect is a weird thing.  But once it's in your deck, it's a terminal $3 (worse than $4) that drops a card from this turn (worse than next turn) by putting a card on your deck (much worse than discarding) and costs $5 (more expensive).

However much you think Mandarin's on-gain ability affects its power level, does it really compensate for ALL of those things?

I'm not sure I agree with these premises. In a Big Money deck, Mandarin has a specific niche: you don't yet want to buy Duchies but you have $5 and a) aren't saturated with terminals yet and few/no other good BM terminals are on the board, or b) have a Gold in play that you'd like for next turn, or both.

In a big money case like this, I would argue that putting a card on deck in later turns is at worst breakeven, and is beneficial more often than not. In an engine I wouldn't consider Mandarin barring some edge cases.

I think it worthwhile to restate the idea of making the penalty a bit harsher (forcing a Treasure to be tossed if possible, or something similar) to weaken it. Tossing a single victory card is not a penalty at all, as you mention, but Cutpursing yourself (or worse) next turn has interesting implications.

Cutpurse gives $2 to you and -$1 to your opponent - net $3 advantage. $4 this turn and -$1 the next would be also $3 advantage at the same price level. Certainly it is a stronger card since the benefit is concentrated. That said I do still think it would be fun to play around with - I wouldn't want to turn it into a Woodcutter by making it too weak as I think there is a role to be played by strong cards of all functions.

[rinkworks]

A 2-card hand is awful in all but a couple circumstances: (1) When you have a direct counter like a "draw-up-to" card, Tactician or Menagerie, (2) When you have a gainer, or (3) when your entire hand was bad. Having Gold-Silver or better happens most when you would rather be starting to green.

Tactician has a penalty, but the best uses of the card are when (1) you get to use the cards in your hand anyway (Secret Chamber/Vault, gainers, virtual $), and/or (2) when having a ridiculously large hand is the goal (Bridge megaturns, Forge, Cellar, Secret Chamber/Vault, Mountebank, FG, Conspirator). If you often just use it to draw 3 extra coppers and 2 estates (one of the only ways it can be worse than +3 coin, +1 buy), the card isn't being used properly or it is too early in the game to use it properly.

Agreed on Tactician, but the point is that it's good even when you can't do anything else with that first turn.  With Merchant Banker, it takes a precisely timed attack to get you down to a point where it still isn't as bad as Tactician's penalty.  In both cases, there are ways you can wrangle out a good turn out of the "bad" turn anyhow, so that part's a wash.

Mandarin's put a card on top thing can be a big help, unlike discarding. I have top-deck enough golds, silvers, and terminals to win with them to know that.

I'll go ahead and withdraw my claim that top-decking a card is "much worse" than discarding.  Courtyard sometimes being preferable to Smithy (usually in money games rather than engines) attests to that and then some.  There are absolutely times when discarding would be preferable (if you need all your $-producing cards, discarding a green card is way better than top-decking it), but the distinction is irrelevant to this debate, I guess, since I don't really think changing the penalty to top-decking a card would fix it.

Anyway, I don't think the card is good as-is. I would consider it much better if you discarded a card both turns and it only gave +$3 and a +1 buy.

That would certainly be closer.  It would be awfully similar to Horse Traders in that case and pretty much always better in the absence of attacks.  Knocking the +Buy off might even the scales a little better, not that it has to precisely match the power level of some arbitrary similar card.

How about "draw only 3 cards in your clean-up phase"?  Then you'd keep the reverse Tactician idea, but the penalty has some bite to it.   But I also like just the idea of a card (not necessarily this one) with a "now and later" penalty to it, as your version has.  It's almost a bit surprising that Seaside never got a card like that.  What would a "now and next turn" Oasis be worth, for example?