Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Interaction card - Exile Isle  (Read 7039 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Interaction card - Exile Isle
« on: July 24, 2012, 10:54:40 pm »
0

I made this card for the design challenge, but realized that there's no way anyone votes for it.  But I felt it was worth sharing.  It is adventurous and game changing, like Possession.

Exile Isle
6$ Action - Attack
+2$
Gain a card costing up to 5$ to your Exile Isle mat.  Each opponent may gain a Silver to his Exile Isle mat.
You may trash a Province from your hand.  If you do, each player discards his hand, puts his deck in his discard pile, exchanges the contents of his discard pile and Exile Isle mat, and draws 5 cards.


I wanted to make a Shahrazad for Dominion.  This seemed like the best way to make it work.  There's two use cases here (or at least, intended use cases).  You can use Exile Isle to set aside awesome cards and build a deck that wrecks a simple stack of Silvers and thus can recoup the loss of the Province in the "new game".  Or, you can use it like a super Monument and sneak Duchies onto your mat, at the risk of your opponent trashing a Province so he can trounce your Duchy deck with his Silver deck.

Thoughts?

I think it might be necessary to pick up at least one in most games to threaten the super-Monument strategy with a game reset.  That can be a bad thing, but there's lots of powerful cards that create a new  kind of game, like King's Court, that make that space worth exploring even if some of your purchase decisions are a little bit more funneled.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 01:35:21 pm by popsofctown »
Logged

One Armed Man

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 410
  • Respect: +88
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 11:24:45 pm »
0

Do you want the other players to have their next turns with no hand? They can buy a copper I guess.
Logged

Archetype

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
  • Suffers from Fancy Play Syndrom
  • Respect: +690
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 11:30:00 pm »
0

I have 2 thoughts:

1. How ISN'T this an attack?

2. Condensing everyone's deck into a couple of Silvers just changes the game too much in a way that I find much too swingy.
Logged

One Armed Man

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 410
  • Respect: +88
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 12:15:57 am »
0

If it is an attack, it can be Moated, resulting in only one player Shaharazading. The switching needs to work with all players. It is similar to Possession this way.
Logged

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +749
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 03:45:22 am »
0

Too game changing. All you need is a Province in the hand with Exile isle, and that is pretty much gg. Good counter is NV/Bridge.
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 10:16:22 am »
0

I have 2 thoughts:

1. How ISN'T this an attack?

2. Condensing everyone's deck into a couple of Silvers just changes the game too much in a way that I find much too swingy.

It's a symmetric effect, so it isn't an attack.  The primary effect is just like Governor.  The Province trash ability is, now it's revised, different from Minion in that you draw the same size hand.

Condensing your opponent's deck into a couple of Silvers probably would not be a common thing.  It is really hard for you to use a Festival and a Militia to totally dominate 2 Silvers so much that you can justify trashing a Province from your deck.  What you want is something more like Bazaar, Bazaar, Haggler, Haggler, Militia against 5 Silvers, and that will play out with some tempo if you trash a Province onto that, 5 silvers is a decent deck.

I identified the swing in the concept and weathered that with a Province trash.  If you pick up enough Exile Isles so that your Exile Isle deck is within 6 points of quality of your opponent's, no one will ever actually trash a Province.

@Morgrim - It actually doesn't counter NV Bridge at all.  The cards stay on the Native Village mat.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 10:19:14 am by popsofctown »
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 10:54:43 am »
0

Have you playtested this?  If so, I'd be curious to hear how it played out in actual game situations.  Like others here, I'm skeptical that this isn't broken somehow, but it's definitely game-changing enough that it's probably impossible to grasp the particulars of how it will play out without actual experience.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 10:59:00 am »
0

I have not playtested it, but would like to.  I need to get my family to play more dominion with me again, they are my only guinea pigs :(
Logged

FishingVillage

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
  • Respect: +28
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 01:27:36 pm »
0

So on the off chance I haven't been gaining Silvers onto my Exile mat and I haven't gotten a chance to use Exile Isle myself before someone does the switch... I am totally hosed then right?

And you didn't make it explicit, but I'm assuming cards on the Exile mat go back into your deck at the end of the game?

Also yeah, I have cards I'd like to playtest too but I don't have that many victims to lasso up around here either :(
Logged

Archetype

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
  • Suffers from Fancy Play Syndrom
  • Respect: +690
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 01:47:45 pm »
0

I would consider it an attack. It's not symmetric. Symmetric would be all players having a deck of Silvers.

But yeah, you're right. If you entered this into the challenge, it would have a hard time getting votes.

Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 02:49:05 pm »
0

I would consider it an attack. It's not symmetric. Symmetric would be all players having a deck of Silvers.

But yeah, you're right. If you entered this into the challenge, it would have a hard time getting votes.

Tribute isn't symmetric.  Possession isn't symmetric.  Masquerade isn't symmetric (you get to trash).
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 04:14:41 pm »
0

This is a tough one, but I'm going to weigh in on this needing an Attack type.   The non-attack interactions are all pretty neutral.  Tribute cycles somebody, and that might be a good thing (skipping Curses) or a bad thing (skipping Minions), but it's not clearly better or worse in a generic situation, and -- this is the key -- without some very particular deck inspection combinations, you can't really use Tribute as a de facto attack.

Possession is a blurrier case, but I believe the same can be said of it.  The norm is that it cycles the opponent a bit and swaps a random hand out for a different random hand -- no harm done on average, and you can't really use it to cause harm outside of certain specific combos.  Admittedly, Possession, unlike Tribute, has some KILLER combinations, such as with Ambassador, Masquerade, and Island.  That's why I say it's a blurrier case.  But on its own, it doesn't really harm the opponent so much as help the player.

Masquerade is blurrier still, because it's not really a neutral effect.  However, it's just as likely that he'll be able to get rid of a worse card than he gets back, so -- again in the absence of specific combos -- it's a little bit hard to use it to cause any real harm except by accident.  But I think the real reason it's not an attack is that the actual mechanics become a bit more complicated if it were possible to Moat it.   Not unworkable, but certainly more complex.  So let's give Masquerade the benefit of the doubt.

But swapping your entire deck out for a pack of Silvers isn't a neutral action by any remotely conceivable stretch of the imagination.  Absolutely it might help you sometimes!  But Thief and Pirate Ship can help (trashing your Coppers), Oracle can help (letting you reorder the top of your deck), Margrave can help (by drawing a key card), Mountebank can help (by juicing up Counting House), Militia/Cutpurse/Torturer can help (by empowering your Library), and so on.  The difference is, the effects of these cards are not neutral.  In short, they:

(1) Cause a tangible effect on your deck.
(2) Can be employed or withheld strategically by an opponent interested in harming your deck.

Both of these things are true of Exile Isle.  You're right that very often it will improve an opponent's deck, but presumably an opponent isn't going to do a swap if it does.  And in any case, we're not talking about a little simple cycling or junk-for-junk trade.  We're talking, "Hey, that deck you were building up?  TOO BAD!  Have some Silvers instead!"  That's a more disruptive effect than any official card can have on an opponent's deck.  On that basis alone, it should be labelled an Attack.

And in those cases where being hit with it would be a good thing, you can always decline to Moat it.  There are plenty of Attack cards already where you sometimes want to do this.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 04:20:24 pm »
0

All well and good.  My point was simply that asymmetry is not the defining characteristic of an Attack card.
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2012, 04:26:15 pm »
0

All well and good.  My point was simply that asymmetry is not the defining characteristic of an Attack card.

Oh, sure.  My post wasn't a direct response to that, just to the general "should it be/shouldn't it be" debate.
Logged

Archetype

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
  • Suffers from Fancy Play Syndrom
  • Respect: +690
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2012, 04:32:07 pm »
0

I wasn't saying that all non attack interactions need to be symmetrical, just telling pops that this card's effect isn't symmetrical.
Logged

gman314

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 589
  • Respect: +281
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2012, 06:55:28 pm »
0

But in a mirror match, it would be close to symmetrical. If both players are building a mega-turn on their exile isle, then causing the switch would give the other player their mega-turn. So, it would truly have to be a mega-turn rather than a mega-two-turns. I think this would definitely cause some really interesting play.
Logged

ycz6

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Respect: +412
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2012, 08:14:45 pm »
0

Random implausible combo:

  • Highway -> Exile a single Exile Isle and optionally a Throne Room
  • Spam Duchy/Duke forever
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2012, 09:35:32 pm »
0

I would consider it an attack. It's not symmetric. Symmetric would be all players having a deck of Silvers.

But yeah, you're right. If you entered this into the challenge, it would have a hard time getting votes.

Tribute isn't symmetric.  Possession isn't symmetric.  Masquerade isn't symmetric (you get to trash).

I was thinking Governor as a very pertinent example, actually.  In a Colony game, spamming an opponent's engine deck with Silvers can be pretty rough when you're getting Golds for your BM deck. 

Like, power level wise and mechanicswise I really don't care if this is an attack or not.  Moat is a rare, single card that actually stops attacks cold (there's also Lighthouse, but that doesn't surprise anyone.  Though the Moat shouldn't either, really..).  Secret Chamber does nothing.  Horse Traders is super cute. 
I just really think this aesthetically should not be an attack.  It is too much like Governor to me.  "Hey, I'm going to build us both a strategy, but mine's going to be stronger, hahahaha."
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 09:44:52 pm by popsofctown »
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2012, 10:51:52 pm »
0

I just really think this aesthetically should not be an attack.  It is too much like Governor to me.  "Hey, I'm going to build us both a strategy, but mine's going to be stronger, hahahaha."

Silver is almost always a positive addition to a deck.  Very few engines actually choke on it, and the ones that do (primarily cantrip chains like Market or Conspirator) can still weather a limited number.  I mean, if you have so much Silver that your cantrip chains aren't firing, you buy a Province and move on.  No matter what your deck composition, Silver pulls your average card value above the $1.6 needed to buy a Province* and only ever pulls it down below that if you're way overshooting that mark.

By contrast, exchanging my entire deck, containing the labor of maybe 10-15 turns for, what, 3-5 Silvers to match the other player's 3-5 Mountebanks and Festivals, is gg.  I'd rather be hit by Followers repeatedly than hit by this thing once.  I mean, the attacker will never pull that trigger if he can't cruise to victory, right?  Nobody trashes a Province uncertainly.

The really nasty thing is the victim can't even undo the damage, because he's got to buy an Exile Isle and a Province and trash the Province to revert the damage -- three turns minimum -- by which point the original player has easily bought 2-3 more Provinces and might (now that his own slim deck is choking too) welcome the recovery of his fatter, more resilient deck, which after all has already proven strong enough to buy at least one Province.  So he has no choice but to outrace the attacker, essentially playing a brand new game of Dominion with a markedly inferior starting deck.

I hate to bag on this, because it does seem like a cool idea.  I just think that the hypothesizing the idea invites is about a million times cooler than this specific implementation will actually play, which is just a bazooka to the head of any opponent that dares play any other strategy.

On that, it does feel like Governor.  If someone is playing Exile Isle, you play Exile Isle too or lose.  Regardless, Governor's effects are all beneficial to the opponent in all but the most niche of circumstances, while Exile Isle will never benefit an opponent unless the attacker purposely makes silly decisions with it like stacking up 8 Stables on it.

(*WanderingWinder, a much better player than me, has argued that Silver doesn't even hurt you in Colony games for the most part, even though there the target average card value is $2.2.  I suppose that's because Silver's modestly lower value than the target average is outweighed by the resilience it provides against greening, but I dunno; I defer to his experience and track record.)
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2012, 10:55:43 pm »
0

The really nasty thing is the victim can't even undo the damage, because he's got to buy an Exile Isle and a Province and trash the Province to revert the damage -- three turns minimum -- by which point the original player has easily bought 2-3 more Provinces and might (now that his own slim deck is choking too) welcome the recovery of his fatter, more resilient deck, which after all has already proven strong enough to buy at least one Province.  So he has no choice but to outrace the attacker, essentially playing a brand new game of Dominion with a markedly inferior starting deck.

Possible solution: upon triggering Exile Isle, every opponent also gains an Exile Isle in their newly exchanged deck, thus allowing them to revert.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2012, 10:10:00 am »
0

Oh well.  If I'm outvoted on how the card feels, like I said, the attack typing doesn't matter much.  I'll probably add it, I might forget to edit the OP though.
To me, even though players know that the Province trash swap is usually a disadvantage, the card only knows that a swap amongst cards that player owns is happening and doesn't know that the Silver deck is worse. 

I want to play test it as is.  It might be powerful, but that's ok if it's interesting.   I just need a guinea pig.
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 10:15:44 am »
0

Oh well.  If I'm outvoted on how the card feels, like I said, the attack typing doesn't matter much.  I'll probably add it, I might forget to edit the OP though.
To me, even though players know that the Province trash swap is usually a disadvantage, the card only knows that a swap amongst cards that player owns is happening and doesn't know that the Silver deck is worse. 

I want to play test it as is.  It might be powerful, but that's ok if it's interesting.   I just need a guinea pig.

If you don't find one, any chance you could simulate a game or two by playing two players yourself?  It's not ideal, but a single game will tell you a lot.  Two will tell you more:  one mirror match, and one where only one player goes for it.
Logged

gman314

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 589
  • Respect: +281
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2012, 12:54:39 pm »
0

I think I have two possible ideas which might help fix this card:
1) Make the Silver gaining mandatory. That way if you trigger, you WILL be facing a pile of silver. Also, in a mirror match, each player will be clogging the other's mega-turn potential by filling their deck with Silver.

2) Replace the Silver gaining with an option for each other player to put a card from hand onto the mat. This way, by building your own Exile Isle mega-turn, you are also allowing your opponent to put cards into a mega-turn. And, those cards could be better than what you're putting in. Since they put cards from their hand in rather than cards costing up to $5, they could put Gold or KC in to build a strong Exile Island or they could put Provinces or Colonies in to store points in it.
Logged

Thanar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2012, 01:30:01 am »
0

Exile – Forceful or voluntary removal of a citizen from his country for a long period or for life.

Exile Isle - During the Roman Empire, deportation to certain islands became a general punishment for serious crimes.

Possible images (perhaps the first for the card and the second for the mat?):

The Isle of the Dead by Arnold Böcklin (1883)
Hi-res versions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arnold_Boecklin_-_Island_of_the_Dead,_Third_Version.JPG


Isle of Life by Arnold Böcklin (1888)
Hi-res versions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B%C3%B6cklin_-_Die_Lebensinsel_-1888.jpeg

Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Non-attack interaction card - Exile Isle
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2012, 12:56:18 pm »
0

Exile – Forceful or voluntary removal of a citizen from his country for a long period or for life.

Exile Isle - During the Roman Empire, deportation to certain islands became a general punishment for serious crimes.

Possible images (perhaps the first for the card and the second for the mat?):

The Isle of the Dead by Arnold Böcklin (1883)
Hi-res versions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arnold_Boecklin_-_Island_of_the_Dead,_Third_Version.JPG


Isle of Life by Arnold Böcklin (1888)
Hi-res versions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B%C3%B6cklin_-_Die_Lebensinsel_-1888.jpeg


I really like the first one, since this will be labelled attack!  Thanks!


I will test this on my own when I find some time.  I tested my actual mini-set design challenge non-attack interaction submission first.  It tested well.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 1.537 seconds with 20 queries.