Dominion > Variants and Fan Cards

Vineyard and University Cost Without Potion

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Willvon:
I checked out the threads on variants for Alchemy on BGG.  There were a couple of discussions there about giving some kind of value to the Potion cost if you were to use the cards without Potions.  Admittedly, if you are going to buy Alchemy, it really doesn't make a lot of sense to try to make such a conversion.  Just play with Potions as it was designed.

Though I personally have Base Dominion, Intrigue, all of the other expansions, and will probably purchase future expansions, I have decided at this time not to purchase Alchemy.  However, I have some blank cards that I have put to use to create an Apprentice in my collection since it doesn't use potions.  I love the card when it comes up in our random decks.  There are a couple of other cards from Alchemy for which I would like to do the same thing, namely Vineyard and University.  Obviously Herbalist would be the easiest because it doesn't require Potion in its cost.  Perhaps I will do it also if I get more blanks with future expansions, but for now I am interested in the other two mentioned.  The problem lies in translating the cost of a Potion to a card value that doesn't include Potion in the cost.

I don't wish to cause a big controversy here.  I realize that some will feel that I should just buy Alchemy and use the Potions. If that is how you feel, you probably have an excellent point, but it won't change my mind as far as buying it right now.  However, if there are some of you willing to bear with me, I would appreciate any thoughts on my reasoning on how to translate the costs for the two cards.

First of all, a Potion costs $4, Silver costs $3, and Gold costs $6.  Since Silver is then worth $2 in buying power and Gold is worth $3, that would seem to put Potion as being a Treasure worth at best $2-1/2.  Obviously that is a ludicrous cost to try to translate over to a card.  But even if you consider it as being worth $3, that would mean Vineyard costs $3 to buy and University would cost $5.  Both of those costs seem to be too low when compared to other cards in the game.  If you make it worth $4, that is what you have to pay to obtain a Potion in the first place.  So I am looking as that as my starting point.  Now let’s consider the individual cards.

First, Vineyard: In Donald X's post about the Secret History of Alchemy, he mentioned that Vineyard was originally in the Base set and Gardens was in what became Alchemy with the costs switched.  That would indicate that $4 is an acceptable cost for Vineyard since that is what it would have been if it had remained in the Base game.  That fits with the $4 translation cost for Potion since a Vineyard normally costs $0 and 1 Potion.  So that all seems pretty straight forward.

Next, University: In the post “Combo: University/Watchtower/X” on this forum the point was made that with Potion in its cost, University is kept from being too crazy.  Certainly that would be a big issue if you translated the Potion cost to just $3 for University.  It would end up being a $5 card, which you could use to get multiple Universities and then use them for multiple purchases of other $5 cards.  However, if we apply the Potion cost as $4, then University now costs $6 to buy.  That would prevent someone from using it to get more Universities.  So it would seem that would be a good cost for it, but is there any reason to think that it is too powerful to be a $6 card?  On the other hand, $7 seems to be way too much for it, and would weaken it to an extreme.  So for me, it feels best to give it a cost of $6.

Any thoughts as to my reasoning or lack of it? :)

timchen:
I would probably let Vineyard be a $5 card and same for the University.

I think it is okay for the University to gain themselves. At $6 I feel it is overpriced mainly due to the fact that they can then usually be bought after the second shuffle and the gaining ability is quite a bit weakened. Note that 2+P is almost guaranteed in your second shuffle.

On the other side, in a setup where it is unwise to get 10+ action cards to your deck, you should probably never bother Vineyard. Making them cost less does not change this. However, in the case where you can easily add extra actions to your deck, Vineyard can easily reach 4 or 5 VP. $5 would probably be on the cheap side, if you compare it to Fairgrounds.

Kirian:
I'd place Uni at $5 with the other change:  You may gain an Action card other than University costing up to $5.

ackack:
I don't think Vineyard can be a 4. Gainers + Vineyard become even stronger in that scenario, and given that Ironworks/Vineyard is already very, very tough to beat, I don't think that can be good.

Deadlock39:
It sounds like most of the issues people are bringing up are related to being able to gain these cards without buying them.  I think Kirian's version of University, and a $3 or $4 Vineyards that you cannot gain directly without buying would work in most situations. 

Also, at the risk of getting more complicated, I might restrict them to one per turn because you almost never have 2 potions and a +buy (especially if Vineyards is at $3). 

Opening with University on a 2/5 start could be insane on some boards, so you might have an issue with that.

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