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[tko]

When is it a good idea to use Steward's +2 coin option (instead of trashing) on turn 3/4 to pick up a 5-cost card?

To simplify, let's imagine kingdoms where there is only 1 5-cost card:
Mountebank
Witch
Laboratory
Treasury
Market

For example, if you can get 3 Labs, Steward trashing can be done efficiently mid-game.  Mountebank and Witch seem like excellent candidates but is there a benefit to trashing so if you buy them turns 5/6, you cycle into them faster than the player who Steward'd +2 coin on turn 3?  Finally, either Market or Treasury seem like bad options and I would likely rather trash.

Thoughts?

[Stoc]

There's a lot of factors to consider here, and to me heavily depends on the other card you opened with.

If I pick up Steward on turn 3, am I very likely to get 5$ on turn 4? If so, trash. Drawing copper, silver, estate, estate as the other four cards would make me more likely to trash as well. Heck, I could even draw 5 copper on Turn 4.

If you pick up a Mountebank on 4 and your opponent trashes instead, playing your Mountebank before their next shuffle seemingly cancels out their trashing. Witch's draw also provides the same cycling advantage your opponent gets for trashing 2 cards.

In general, with a strong $5 on the board, I'd lean towards getting the 5 cost card early but there are a lot of factors that go into the choice.

[guided]

In most cases, Steward is not a fast enough trasher to keep up with Witch or Mountebank, so you probably shouldn't be opening Steward with the intent of using it to trim your deck if those cards are available.

I won't make an absolute statement but... it's exceptionally hard for me to imagine a situation where taking $2 for Lab, Treasury, or Market instead of trashing with Steward at turn 3/4 would be anything short of a horrific blunder 

[RichyRich]

In most cases, Steward is not a fast enough trasher to keep up with Witch or Mountebank, so you probably shouldn't be opening Steward with the intent of using it to trim your deck if those cards are available.

I won't make an absolute statement but... it's exceptionally hard for me to imagine a situation where taking $2 for Lab, Treasury, or Market instead of trashing with Steward at turn 3/4 would be anything short of a horrific blunder 

This. If (read: when) your opponent goes for Mountebank your Steward probably won't keep up, so just go for the silver instead to avoid clashing terminals.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Copper Copper Copper Copper Steward >> Gold is one I find hard to pass up.

[drg]

Copper copper silver estate steward is more interesting though, whether to take 3 and trash or 6.

[Teproc]

Copper Copper Copper Copper Steward >> Gold is one I find hard to pass up.

Yeah I would be interested in everyone's opinion about that one, because I also tend to take the Gold, but I'm not sure wether it's right or not.

[guided]

Depends.

I would say it's probably just about always wrong to take the coin at turn 3/4 for $5 -- What $5 card do you need so critically on a board where Steward is a viable trasher? -- but $6 for Gold is another story. I feel like turn 3/4 Gold might about as strong as trashing 2 cards in a lot of cases, and certainly it doesn't fall into the "huge mistake" category of taking the coin for, like, a Lab.

[Elyv]

I almost always trash, I'd usually rather get two bad cards out of my deck than put one good one in. If there are no 2s worth buying, I guess I might get +2 in the 4 copper + steward hand, but I think I'd still probably trash.

[Blaeu]

Steward is a powerful trashing card, which is why I think so many people compare it to Chapel and try to use it as a "lesser" Chapel.  However, in an attempt to shed some light on how I use Steward, lets lets look at the card from a different view point.

Lets compare Steward to Smithy.  We all know how powerful Smithy can be combined with big money as it lets you get to/more of your treasure so you can make big purchases more quickly.  Steward works in much the same way, except it can actually be more reliable early on with the flat +2 coin.  I buy Steward with the primary purpose of boosting my buying power if needed; trashing is a secondary, but still important, purpose.

Usually, if the +2 coins will allow me to buy $5 or more I will take the card (assuming it is a good card).  If the +2 only puts me to $4, that usually means I have two Estates and I will trash those two and there is rarely a $4 action card that is better than two less estates this early on.

The reason I dislike to think of Steward is a "lesser" Chapel is because it isn't always fast enough to pull off "Chapel strategies."  Say you drew Chapel and four coppers, would you trash all four coppers?  I would (most of the time) as trashing four coppers is usually going to improve your deck much more than anything you can buy at $4.  Now say you drew Steward and four coppers, is trashing just two coppers going to improve your deck more than adding a Gold?  IMO, no.

Also, keep in mind that since you are just trashing two cards, it is much more common later in the game to find Steward paired with two other cards you want to trash compared to Chapel and four you want to trash.

The reason Steward is such a good card is due to its versatility (and cost) as there are cards that do any one thing that Steward does much better.

[Personman]

I'm generally of the belief that trashing is just about always right, except maybe for Mountebank, but the four-copper situation is one I often wonder about as well. I usually end up trashing, but I'm not sure at all that I'm right.

I think that it would be valuable for the community to do some serious thinking about a framework for evaluating trashing a card. We all know it's great, but how great is it? When does it stop being so great? How does it depend on what else is available?

I started to try to do some analysis of the four-copper situation, but it's *really* complicated. I think the main concern though should be: "Do I have time to build up my economy, or is there a card that I need RIGHT NOW to be competitive?" For instance, if there's going to be a minion fight, I might go for the Gold, since that will help me get to Minion money very consistently. If instead I'm going for a +actions +cards engine, I might trash, since that will make finding my engine cards much more consistent. Also, if it were going to be a Conspirator game, I would definitely trash, since I wouldn't even really want gold in my deck that much at all.

[guided]

After some more thought I think I'm going to come down on the side that with Steward + 4 copper at turn 3/4 it's probably going to be a notably better move to take the Gold, on most boards. Early Gold is really, really good, particularly when you're focused on early trashing so that 1/2 or 1/3 of your turns are all but useless for buying anything.

Steward/Silver/2xCopper/Estate is a little tougher. I would guess neither choice could be called wrong there.

As to the value of trashing more generally, well, I think a lot of very good players overrate it a bit. I have definitely been guilty of this too. Not that trashing is weak by any means, but it's not the end-all-be-all I once thought it was. Honing my endgame skills (particularly timing for buying lesser VP cards than Provinces) has taught me that in many cases you can get far enough ahead to hold on for victory by quickly amassing VPs with a loose deck while an opponent is spending time tightly trimming their own deck. A relatively easy way for already-good players to incrementally improve their game is to start really thinking hard about when to trash vs. when to keep more buying power instead in the midgame. For one easy example, at turn 8 (or whatever) if you're interested in having more Gold in your deck, you will almost never want to trash Coppers if doing so knocks you below $6 for the turn. There was a thread on BGG some months ago on Chapel/treasure vs. straight Big Money that really opened my eyes about this stuff.

On the other hand, if you're building a big end-loaded megaturn action card engine, yeah, you want to trash ruthlessly to get it functioning smoothly as fast as possible!

[DG]

I'd agree that taking an early 5 or 6 with the steward can be productive. Taking out too much copper at the start can leave you low on spending, depending upon your other purchases. On the other hand if you're using an ironworks, say, you typically want to be rid of the starting cards and fill up with new cards as fast as you can.

It's also worth remembering that steward for +2 cards on turn 4 can be the best play. The best example is when you've got a potion left on the top of your deck but there are other situations too.

[ddubois]

My biggest steward dilemma is the turn 3 or 4 "potion copper steward X X" hand when I'm in a university/alchemist/familiar race.  $2 is usually worse than +2 cards here, I figure that much (since 2 cards almost always gets you your purchase and shuffles you deck a turn earlier).  But I've never been able to convince myself one way or another whether I should just suffer the collision and eat the trash, or push the race for the alchemy card.  Perhaps it the decision should come down to how many estates are among the X-factor cards? 2 = always trash, 1 = probably trash, 0 = draw through?

[rinkworks]

My biggest steward dilemma is the turn 3 or 4 "potion copper steward X X" hand when I'm in a university/alchemist/familiar race.  $2 is usually worse than +2 cards here, I figure that much (since 2 cards almost always gets you your purchase and shuffles you deck a turn earlier).  But I've never been able to convince myself one way or another whether I should just suffer the collision and eat the trash, or push the race for the alchemy card.  Perhaps it the decision should come down to how many estates are among the X-factor cards? 2 = always trash, 1 = probably trash, 0 = draw through?

That's a really interesting thought.  I guess if it's turn 4, you usually know what the next two cards are, so that's a simple decision.  But my guess is that if you don't know you'll draw enough for a Familiar, take the +$2 and ensure yourself one.  So often a missed Familiar on the second shuffle determines the game outright.  It'll be easier to recover from missing the early trashing/cycling than it will a missed Familiar.

In an Alchemist or University race, you can probably afford to take more of a risk.  But this is just my gut feeling here.

[ddubois]

If you have pscce on turn 3, you only have a (2/7)*(1/6) chance of pulling runner-runner estates.  That's a gamble I'm willing to take.  Maybe on pscee, $2 is better than +2 cards, but in that case, trashing is probably better than either, since killing two estates is great.

If you are on university race, it's impossible to not draw into $2p, so +2 cards still beats $2.

Anyway, the question is really about trashing versus buying.

[HiveMindEmulator]

This question should usually be answered before you even buy your opening cards.
If you opened potion, it's usually because you judged that it was important to get your potion-cost card asap, in which case it shouldn't be a question: buy the potion-cost card.
The only situation I see in which this would not be the case is I guess if you were going for alchemist with a cheap +buy card, so you figured you'd open by trashing, and might as well get the potion asap since you don't need silver to get your +buy card. In that case, the "important" part of the opening was the steward for trashing, so you should use the trashing.

[jimjam]

Copper Copper Copper Copper Steward >> Gold is one I find hard to pass up.

Yeah I would be interested in everyone's opinion about that one, because I also tend to take the Gold, but I'm not sure wether it's right or not.

It's kind of like choosing between Cache and Silver.

[popsofctown]

Cache and a 2$, more literally.

If you opened Steward/Silver, your deck has about 11$ in it distributed over 12 cards, 11/12$ per card.

Buying a gold puts you at 15/13$, trashing two copper isn't even an improvement, taking you to 9/10$.

Usually you should buy the gold, but if you want a head start on an engine with lots of cheap pieces, maybe you can trash a copper.