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[Eevee]

If both timchen and Galzria are town, I'd go manda-PPS or Nick-PPS. Not "seeing pairs" though, but since you asked.

I did the scummy ------ towny exercise a couple of pages back already.

Galzria seems to be trying to confuse town with lots of long posts, I dont agree with much of his content but at least he is putting up a fight like I would expect him to. My vote stays there, I think we've found scum.

[timchen]

@PPS: interesting analysis to say the least... but
1. I hoped I've expressed clearly enough why I played as I did. I am fine if you saying it is some play that deserves attention... but I do not agree in any way that it is a consistent play as mafia. To fake claim there under those circumstances without painting a specific target serves no purpose.

2. me-galz pair... well, that's an interesting conspiracy theory. I actually have thought whether this is a possible scenario to others yesterday. As much as I liked it... it is just implausible. You can put WIFOM there... but if we are a pair, it is just so much better for us to stay low and lynch either YN or manda today. This interesting act can be performed tomorrow, with the better flavor (if the cop didn't appear yet) that I fakeclaim cop and accuse galzria. That is a much much more effective play if we both are scum.

I hope now you can see how we play differently.

I try to find scum using mostly motives, reasoning, and likelihood. I do not judge based on the attitude people say things. In M6, I still find my early suspicion on ehunt/cayvie justified. It is just unfortunate that somehow the early death on the Cayvie wagon does not reveal scum. And while your confidence that Galzria is telling the truth from his attitude in that game is indeed correct, you doctoring him actually does NOT help the game that much. Actually if he was found dead along with Ozle, the situation would have been clearer to town, and we wouldn't have to waste a lot of time discussing whether he was lying or not. You can see that toward the end game it did not really matter whether Galzria is dead or alive. (And not to mention that actually your play would make a lot more sense if you were the SK and Glooble was the last member of werewolves... it is fortunate for us you were not)

Thing is, we were still discussing a lot whether Galzria is lying or not lately in that game. This is because it is logical to view how he plays as scum, and he has every motive to play like that if he is scum, and we cannot really rule him out however candid he is, just as theorel said when he is dying.

Here it is similar. You can have a gut feeling that my secrecy is strange. Or Galzria is candid. That is fine. But IMO the important thing here is: whether you believe in my explanation of my play or not, it does not point toward a specific player. Galz is not forced to refute my explanation. Even suppose that objectively you assess that my explanation and Galz's are equally likely (which I do not agree but just for the sake of the argument), a generic townie would have no reason to make a strong case on one side. What he has said about his logic does not withstand scrutiny. The only reason I can see him saying such things is that he is scum.

[timchen]

One additional thing: I don't see from your eyes why I cannot pair with YN or Manda or shark (since you even say I can pair with Galzria...)

And seriously, PPS, now I have found that you put Galzria only behind yourself for towniness, that is ridiculous. What makes you believe him so much?

[pingpongsam]

timchen I can't coherently respond to your questions because you are working off the faulty assumption that I somehow paired you and Galzria.

Go back and read it again. I specifically said you could be paired with anyone except Galzria. I am saying that a timchen/Galzria pair is the one pair I have completely tossed out as plausible.

[timchen]

Oh I see. Sorry about that. Disregard my #2 in the first post and the first line of of the second post then. Other points I've made shall have no relation to that.

[Galzria]

Oh I see. Sorry about that. Disregard my #2 in the first post and the first line of of the second post then. Other points I've made shall have no relation to that.

All the other points you made were "but it COULD have been this way! Just like the dying scum (Theorel) said!" You completely ignore one thing:

Things WEREN'T that way. I wasn't scum then, and I'm not now. You have a very flawed system that you seem to believe works when it's pointed to nothing but town time and time again (you even admit ehunt and Cayvie as well - both town).

Furthermore, it was in no way detrimental to the town for him to have kept me alive because no matter how much talk there was of lynching me, it never happened. Instead, there was an extra town vote on each and every lynch that occurred - a vote that would not have been there if I were dead. Not to mention my voice in the crowd calling out Robz and Theorel even without investigative help.

Know how I pegged them as scum? Gut feeling based on the attitude of the things they hag said.

[pingpongsam]

And seriously, PPS, now I have found that you put Galzria only behind yourself for towniness, that is ridiculous. What makes you believe him so much?

Call it confirmation bias if you want, but knowing I'm Town and seeing someone else read what I was already reading without me leading them is fairly convincing that they are on my team.

To be fair, I think that YN or manda are the likeliest scum. However, the notion of an Eevee/timchen pair was on my mind and Galzria just threw it out there like a stinking fish for us all to gape at. Who can blame Galzria for showing his hand when the potential pair team up to lynch him? It should be noted that I've got you in the middle of the suspicion deck but you're acting as if I've implicated you when all I've done is acknowledge the viability of Galzria's read on you.

If I want to build a case on anyone here I'm sure I could but I have to run with my gut. My gut says Galzria is town and it has said that from the beginning. It's not about the personality, if I had the same read on you I'd have the same words for a different name.

You and Eevee seem to think he's scum and you've put forth a case to that effect. Why do you suppose no one else has joined your wagon? I may be vocal in my stance on Galzria but the vote tally says a few others are implicitly taking the same stance.

[timchen]

Well we have to rely on others then. I don't see how you can be convinced.

Now I have to think how to proceed.

Hmm galz, now it seems you start to suggest that I am a town with bad read rather than scum huh? Too late for that.

As for your point, well the thing is you cannot convince people using your gut feeling. OK you said robz and theorel. Are you right about frisk in this game? How about Jo in m6?

[Galzria]

Well we have to rely on others then. I don't see how you can be convinced.

Now I have to think how to proceed.

Hmm galz, now it seems you start to suggest that I am a town with bad read rather than scum huh? Too late for that.

As for your point, well the thing is you cannot convince people using your gut feeling. OK you said robz and theorel. Are you right about frisk in this game? How about Jo in m6?

Nope, still absolutely think you're scum.

My voting for CF had nothing to do with reads. It was an attempt to try something new, lynching scum hiding as town, instead of town looking like scum.

I never had a read on Joth in M-VI. If you mean Gruj - that case was made with faulty logic based on a misunderstanding of my own regarding roles.

[pingpongsam]

Frisk is a prime reason why I've stayed out of the case building business.

I got burned getting wrapped up in the logic which is easy to twist whichever way you want on anyone.

manda gives me the gut read because of her sly play style. Too non-commital for me to feel comfortable with. Eevee and timchen are giving me the willy's for how hard they want to press a wagon and how viciously they turn anything that counters them (more timchen than eevee here).  That said, it's still pro-town play todrive discussion and make waves for pressure so I'm scaling back the suspicion so I have some reserved for the lurky wishy washy play style I'm seeing in manda/YN

[Eevee]

Seems like Galzria and timchen wont get anywhere with their argument. Young Nick or shark_bait, care to weigh in with your take of the situation?

Btw, despite the slow start, this is shaping up to be an awesome game!

[pingpongsam]

Seems like Galzria and timchen wont get anywhere with their argument. Young Nick or shark_bait, care to weigh in with your take of the situation?

Haha, yeah, looks like Town isn't going to kill themselves all by themselves today will some scum please step up?

[timchen]

All the other points you made were "but it COULD have been this way! Just like the dying scum (Theorel) said!" You completely ignore one thing:

Things WEREN'T that way. I wasn't scum then, and I'm not now. You have a very flawed system that you seem to believe works when it's pointed to nothing but town time and time again (you even admit ehunt and Cayvie as well - both town).

Furthermore, it was in no way detrimental to the town for him to have kept me alive because no matter how much talk there was of lynching me, it never happened. Instead, there was an extra town vote on each and every lynch that occurred - a vote that would not have been there if I were dead. Not to mention my voice in the crowd calling out Robz and Theorel even without investigative help.

Know how I pegged them as scum? Gut feeling based on the attitude of the things they hag said.

Let me respond more in detail. Yes, my response are possibilities. But we won't know which way things are definitely anyway. Oh and I should say, before your insistence on my fakeclaim everything is still probabilistic; but after that and the development of yesterday I am 100% sure you are scum. I can see how others cannot be 100% sure since they don't know my alliance; but they should have a reasonable doubt higher than 75%, since my arguments why you are saying this are plausible while your arguments why I am saying this is nonsense.

What you are saying here is just confirmation bias. You cannot call a read good just when it turned out well; you need either reasons or good records to support it. And I have good reasons in m6 at that time to doubt ehunt and cayvie, even though they turned out to be town the reason is still valid and should not be ignored. It's like playing dominion. You cannot judge a strategy just based on a single game. And good reasoning is a better road to better strategy than just a few game experience.

Now I am not saying gut feeling based read cannot be good. But you have to look the accuracy of that. So how about your gut feeling about O in m4? frisk in this game? or PPS's feeling toward frisk in this game? For the gut feeling it is just so easy to focus on the part that you are right but neglect the part that you are wrong.

And for m6, the problem is that after the instance of d1 and d2 we just cannot trust you. It would definitely be easier for the town if you have voiced your suspicions and then flipped. And while you can say everything about how accurate your read is, Robz is lynched because his play toward eHal (and the subsequent developments); theorel is lynched because I investigated him. Those are logical arguments instead of gut feelings. Here I am presenting you a logical argument why Galz is scum, even though the logic is probably not as concrete as the two cases in m6.

btw, I actually didn't investigate theorel because I know he is werewolf. I investigated him because I knew he is not mafia. Whether he turned out town or werewolf can both be beneficial.

Pedit: Oh sorry your case is on Grujah in m6 indeed. It was Jo who jumped out claiming catching you on Grujah. My mistakes.

[timchen]

Seems like Galzria and timchen wont get anywhere with their argument. Young Nick or shark_bait, care to weigh in with your take of the situation?

Btw, despite the slow start, this is shaping up to be an awesome game!

Sigh. Awesome game for galzria and the rest of you. Not for me. Frankly speaking I am not interested in convincing people. It would be much more fun if indeed I am lying!

[timchen]

How about this: let us lynch Galzria. If he flipped town; lynch me. I can forfeit my wincon if Galzria is town.
(Galzria you can't complain; if you are sure me and eevee are scum this leads to your victory. I am sad that I cannot offer you to lynch me first because I am not yet sure who your partner is.)

[Galzria]

How about this: let us lynch Galzria. If he flipped town; lynch me. I can forfeit my wincon if Galzria is town.
(Galzria you can't complain; if you are sure me and eevee are scum this leads to your victory. I am sad that I cannot offer you to lynch me first because I am not yet sure who your partner is.)

I can VERY much complain because I put my wincon above my beliefs. If you are indeed town and just say "well, I was wrong, lynch me" I'll be angry as hell.

Even if we lynched you first and I was wrong and you came up town, I would fight tooth and nail against my lynch tomorrow trying to save the game for town. That's why I proposed that question last night.

I think your claim is absolutely unbelievable - but I am willing to admit that I could be wrong. Not willing enough to cease fighting for your lynch - because I DO think it was scum play and not just terrible town play - but I'm absolutely not willing to sacrifice my wincon, and the wincon of the other town playing this game.

IF you're town, that's an idiotic suggestion.

[timchen]

I agree with you on this Galz. Hopefully that can show how certain I am that you are scum.

[pingpongsam]

IF you're town, that's an idiotic suggestion.

Agreed

Vote: timchen

[timchen]

@PPS: if you were to lynch me, please promise me you will lynch Galzria and then manda after I flipped town.

[timchen]

And sigh. You see, you just look at how reasonable his previous post is but overlooked how unreasonable he lurked after my accusation on him, revived after my angry townie theory, and the overall unreasonableness of his argument against me.

[Voltgloss]

Vote Count 2-7

shark_bait (1): Young Nick
timchen (2): Galzria, pingpongsam
Galzria (2): Eevee, timchen

Not Voting {2}: manda2014, shark_bait

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Lynch deadline: Monday, August 13, at 8:00 p.m. forum time (EDT)

[Galzria]

And sigh. You see, you just look at how reasonable his previous post is but overlooked how unreasonable he lurked after my accusation on him, revived after my angry townie theory, and the overall unreasonableness of his argument against me.

I have never lurked, in any game of Mafia I have ever played. If I didn't say something, it's because I either was busy irl, busy keeping track of other games first, or didn't feel the need to respond because there was nothing worth responding to.

The only people with more posts in this thread than me is you and Eevee (and Eevee by a small margin). Young Nick and Manda have almost half the number of posts I do. I don't put much weight by post count in terms of scumminess, but to claim I lurked is blatantly false.

[timchen]

Ok. Whatever. But then I assume you later found something out of nothing to respond to? A large part of your response yesterday was about things that I said before which you said you had nothing to respond.

And comparing with others by post counts is just irrelevant.

[pingpongsam]

Is timchen typically this hotheaded and reactionary?

I have to say my suspicions on him are low but that ploy of I'll get on the cross and kill Town if Galz flips Town is just so over the top I can't overlook it.
That is, imho, inexcusable Town behavior. If you're wrong then eat crow and try to figure out where the real scum are. Making it a kamikaze move that at this stage of the game means loss of the game reeks of scum knowing they have one other member totally in the shadows to pick off the remining Town in the final days.

IIRC, Frisk made similar overtures and it made me suspect him even more. He flipped town which leads me to think maybe the martyr ploy isn't quite as scummy as it looks but it must be noted that was D1 where the stakes were considerably lower.

[Eevee]

Yes, timchen got quite worked up during mafia VI too, he was town there.

Also, the man posts a lot, surely you can find some stupid things he has said. He would probably like to take at least some of them back too. That doesnt mean the good stuff he has said should be forgotten. I still have a town read on timchen.