Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Powerman]

A few people have made this weird insinuation that the official point counter is somehow mutually exclusive with the extension. It isn't.

Other than, my response to every post since my last is "please reread the thread". Literally nothing new has been brought to the table.

Do you consider the extension to be a point counter?  Or do you consider it to be a card counter?

What is this even...? We both know exactly what the extension does. I would advocate its use even if it calculated and displayed odds and strategy tips. In fact, maybe I should fork it and add those features...

My position about fun outside of a tournament setting is that the more of the grunt work is done for you by your tools, the more you can focus on the really deep decisions. All the haters sound to me like ancient farmers deriding and railing against the introduction of the plow, since you don't have that personal connection to each hole you dig or whatever. In my mind, the pursuit of fun, interesting game play should look like the pursuit of better and better tools to rid us of the mental gruntwork that isn't actually any fun.

Now, some people enjoy gardening by hand, and some people enjoy memorization in Dominion, and both of those things are totally fine and awesome things to enjoy. But home gardening should not be the end game for agriculture, and memorization should not be the end game for Dominion.

Oh I know we both know what it does.  And I know what I call it.  My question is, if you had to give a very simple description to someone who didn't would you call it a "point counter" or would you call it something else.  I am very curious.

[Personman]

Oh I know we both know what it does.  And I know what I call it.  My question is, if you had to give a very simple description to someone who didn't would you call it a "point counter" or would you call it something else.  I am very curious.

Ah. I do this frequently, as I have turned many people onto it. I usually call it "the extension" or "the isotropic extension" and then provide a detailed description of what it actually does.

[Powerman]

Oh I know we both know what it does.  And I know what I call it.  My question is, if you had to give a very simple description to someone who didn't would you call it a "point counter" or would you call it something else.  I am very curious.

Ah. I do this frequently, as I have turned many people onto it. I usually call it "the extension" or "the isotropic extension" and then provide a detailed description of what it actually does.

So I ask you "What is that that you are using?  It looks cool!"  And you'd respond "I'm using the extension."  "Ooh, the extension.  What does it do?"  Basically what I'm trying to figure out, is at the very bottom of the issue, what do you consider its so to say "primary" or "fundamental" purpose to be?

[eHalcyon]

A few people have made this weird insinuation that the official point counter is somehow mutually exclusive with the extension. It isn't.

Other than, my response to every post since my last is "please reread the thread". Literally nothing new has been brought to the table.

It isn't mutually exclusive with the extension, sure.  It also isn't explicitly allowed by the rules, which means the rules don't allow it.  You can argue that the rules don't disallow it, but then there is a LOT that the rules don't explicitly disallow.  Davio argues that "well, [certain examples] are obviously cheating" but now you're drawing a line arbitrarily.  In the opinion of many here, using a CARD counter is obviously cheating, and that line is NOT arbitrary, as it is based on the rules of the official game.

[RisingJaguar]

A few people have made this weird insinuation that the official point counter is somehow mutually exclusive with the extension. It isn't.

Other than, my response to every post since my last is "please reread the thread". Literally nothing new has been brought to the table.

Do you consider the extension to be a point counter?  Or do you consider it to be a card counter?

What is this even...? We both know exactly what the extension does. I would advocate its use even if it calculated and displayed odds and strategy tips. In fact, maybe I should fork it and add those features...

My position about fun outside of a tournament setting is that the more of the grunt work is done for you by your tools, the more you can focus on the really deep decisions. All the haters sound to me like ancient farmers deriding and railing against the introduction of the plow, since you don't have that personal connection to each hole you dig or whatever. In my mind, the pursuit of fun, interesting game play should look like the pursuit of better and better tools to rid us of the mental gruntwork that isn't actually any fun.

Now, some people enjoy gardening by hand, and some people enjoy memorization in Dominion, and both of those things are totally fine and awesome things to enjoy. But home gardening should not be the end game for agriculture, and memorization should not be the end game for Dominion.

One more thing to note: a lot of people cling to the rules of games as printed, or as espoused by their designers. There is certainly value in standardization, but I think this is a bad philosophy for a community long-term. Almost every healthy gaming community I can think of either a) has an active official balance team (Magic: The Gathering, many competitive video games) or b) has community-proposed and now widely accepted rules changes, new formats, new tournament procedures, etc (Chess, Backgammon, and other classic board games all have these; Super Smash Bros. and competitive Pokemon are great example of community-set tournament guidelines; online poker communities that have had to legalize various external aids are probably the most direct analogy here). Games can and should evolve over time.

You could be very well on to something here.  You may be the person to lead us to a revolutionary change in dominion!

However doing so in the tournament finals does not seem like the best place to institute your beliefs on how the game should be played in the future.  It should not be forced upon to others.  The game should have been played a way everyone could agree or the standard rules given. 

Lets say I was playing a fighting game like street fighter.  I felt that doing combos was a silly gruntwork task.  The skill involved didn't make the game all that fun.  It is just way to intensive to learn how to do combos and put in all the time to remember what to do.  What was more interesting was the metagame involved.  So what I will do is install an auto-comboing machine so that all my combos will be hit precisely.  I mean everyone else could do it as well. 

That's how your argument as a whole sounds like overall.  Something is boring to do in a game.  So lets take that part of the game out of the game and replace it with a system that can do it for me, even though I could've done it myself if I put the time in.  I mean if I could build it/use it, then anyone else could, so its not really cheating. 

[Insomniac]

So your argument is that there should be no memorization or thought process in dominion beyond what cards should I go for in this kingdom? you probably shouldn't play chess, poker or magic competitively then.

Chess -- Requires memorization of some of the key moves an opponent might make to start an endgame on you, what you have done, what you could have done and what your opponent has done and could have done, and why they might have made that decision

Poker -- Better count cards in your head, online implementations sure don't and require you to act fast or be timed out, and a "card counter" extension for real life nope

Magic -- This is where my argument gets to be super valid, in both games you have a deck of cards, in both games you benefit from knowing what the odds you draw X are, but wait magic won't tell you whats left in your deck and it CERTAINLY won't tell you what's left in your opponents deck. Even in MTGO you have to do the work yourself, sure you could cheat but your on a timelimit there and you can only calculate the odds of you doing something is, not what the odds of you Thoughtscouring their Temporal Mastery is.

[Personman]

So your argument is that there should be no memorization or thought process in dominion beyond what cards should I go for in this kingdom? you probably shouldn't play chess, poker or magic competitively then.

Chess -- Requires memorization of some of the key moves an opponent might make to start an endgame on you, what you have done, what you could have done and what your opponent has done and could have done, and why they might have made that decision

Poker -- Better count cards in your head, online implementations sure don't and require you to act fast or be timed out, and a "card counter" extension for real life nope

Magic -- This is where my argument gets to be super valid, in both games you have a deck of cards, in both games you benefit from knowing what the odds you draw X are, but wait magic won't tell you whats left in your deck and it CERTAINLY won't tell you what's left in your opponents deck. Even in MTGO you have to do the work yourself, sure you could cheat but your on a timelimit there and you can only calculate the odds of you doing something is, not what the odds of you Thoughtscouring their Temporal Mastery is.

Well, I do play Magic competitively. Oops!

I also play Dominion competitively, without an odds calculator. I just said I think the game would be better with one. I think Magic would be too! Right now not every game is perfect, and of course, since everyone's perfect looks different, the value of having many willing opponents is often a good reason to make concessions.

Lets say I was playing a fighting game like street fighter.  I felt that doing combos was a silly gruntwork task.  The skill involved didn't make the game all that fun.  It is just way to intensive to learn how to do combos and put in all the time to remember what to do.  What was more interesting was the metagame involved.  So what I will do is install an auto-comboing machine so that all my combos will be hit precisely.  I mean everyone else could do it as well. 

That's how your argument as a whole sounds like overall.  Something is boring to do in a game.  So lets take that part of the game out of the game and replace it with a system that can do it for me, even though I could've done it myself if I put the time in.  I mean if I could build it/use it, then anyone else could, so its not really cheating. 

God, that sounds great! I hate execution difficulty in fighting games, it is seriously the stupidest thing. Even better would be playing games (Smash is a decent one, though it has other issues) where execution difficulty isn't a design principle, but sure, I would love a SF tournament with combo macros enabled.

Clearly you shouldn't use one when your opponents can't. Surely I do not have to repeat for twelfth time the difference between that situation and the DominionStrategy finals.

[WanderingWinder]

And surely we don't have to repeat for the millionth time that while you have visions of how the game should be played, you can't implement them willy-nilly; you have to follows the rules of the competition you enter.

[yuma]

My opinions of people--who shall remained unnamed--continue to sink lower and lower until the only opinion left is one of disgust. I need to stop reading this thread. But I keep coming back. Is there anyway to stop my addiction of viewing train wrecks?

[Insomniac]

My opinions of people--who shall remained unnamed--continue to sink lower and lower until the only opinion left is one of disgust. I need to stop reading this thread. But I keep coming back. Is there anyway to stop my addiction of viewing train wrecks?

Its part of the human condition to watch train wrecks unfortunately, I believe Obi posted the MJ popcorn meme earlier in the thread .

That said you could set this board to ignored if you dont participate in IsoDom?

[Personman]

And surely we don't have to repeat for the millionth time that while you have visions of how the game should be played, you can't implement them willy-nilly; you have to follows the rules of the competition you enter.

And I unquestionably did. I was 100% transparent about my actions, and the tournament organizer approved them as legal (or, in his words, non-DQ-worthy).

[RisingJaguar]

So your argument is that there should be no memorization or thought process in dominion beyond what cards should I go for in this kingdom? you probably shouldn't play chess, poker or magic competitively then.

Chess -- Requires memorization of some of the key moves an opponent might make to start an endgame on you, what you have done, what you could have done and what your opponent has done and could have done, and why they might have made that decision

Poker -- Better count cards in your head, online implementations sure don't and require you to act fast or be timed out, and a "card counter" extension for real life nope

Magic -- This is where my argument gets to be super valid, in both games you have a deck of cards, in both games you benefit from knowing what the odds you draw X are, but wait magic won't tell you whats left in your deck and it CERTAINLY won't tell you what's left in your opponents deck. Even in MTGO you have to do the work yourself, sure you could cheat but your on a timelimit there and you can only calculate the odds of you doing something is, not what the odds of you Thoughtscouring their Temporal Mastery is.

Well, I do play Magic competitively. Oops!

I also play Dominion competitively, without an odds calculator. I just said I think the game would be better with one. I think Magic would be too! Right now not every game is perfect, and of course, since everyone's perfect looks different, the value of having many willing opponents is often a good reason to make concessions.

Lets say I was playing a fighting game like street fighter.  I felt that doing combos was a silly gruntwork task.  The skill involved didn't make the game all that fun.  It is just way to intensive to learn how to do combos and put in all the time to remember what to do.  What was more interesting was the metagame involved.  So what I will do is install an auto-comboing machine so that all my combos will be hit precisely.  I mean everyone else could do it as well. 

That's how your argument as a whole sounds like overall.  Something is boring to do in a game.  So lets take that part of the game out of the game and replace it with a system that can do it for me, even though I could've done it myself if I put the time in.  I mean if I could build it/use it, then anyone else could, so its not really cheating. 

God, that sounds great! I hate execution difficulty in fighting games, it is seriously the stupidest thing. Even better would be playing games (Smash is a decent one, though it has other issues) where execution difficulty isn't a design principle, but sure, I would love a SF tournament with combo macros enabled.

Clearly you shouldn't use one when your opponents can't. Surely I do not have to repeat for twelfth time the difference between that situation and the DominionStrategy finals.

Okay I get it there is a BIG difference.

If I entered a street fighter tournament and had this stupid little thing on my controller (that combo-er), I would be questioned, then kicked out because I was cheating.  The rules sadly enough aren't in the future and I cannot use this.

If I enter the tournament with PCE, I would also be kicked out (if people complained blah blah) because I was breaking the rules.  Especially if my opponents don't agree to its usage.  I think we are all good up to here, I mean you didn't use it in the finals after some budging.  The next part is that counting cards/card tracker/PCE and excel-esque is illegal in person for dominion (like the example above with street fighter).  Now suddenly because I'm on the computer, away from everyone else, the same rules don't apply?  I mean lets go around counter strike and hack all day (extreme but the fundamental principle is still there, the effect on skill is different though I agree).  Better yet, lets use it in the grand finals. 

Your rationalization sounds like this to me: I mean other people could use it, so I better get ahead of the curve.  Maybe if I use it, then EVERYONE will use it.

Now the actual things you are talking about does sound relatively interesting.  Just the timing of it seems like a really bad time.  Especially since the qualifier wasn't for another online tournament, but an offline tournament where all of this moot. 

Edit: The difference was street fighter was in person, dominion was online.  If dominion was in person, or street fighter/video game was online, then the argument would sound the same.  Ie. Street fighter in person cheating = dominion person cheating.  However that same cheating in street fighter would be deemed okay because its online?

[blueblimp]

Oh I know we both know what it does.  And I know what I call it.  My question is, if you had to give a very simple description to someone who didn't would you call it a "point counter" or would you call it something else.  I am very curious.

Ah. I do this frequently, as I have turned many people onto it. I usually call it "the extension" or "the isotropic extension" and then provide a detailed description of what it actually does.

So I ask you "What is that that you are using?  It looks cool!"  And you'd respond "I'm using the extension."  "Ooh, the extension.  What does it do?"  Basically what I'm trying to figure out, is at the very bottom of the issue, what do you consider its so to say "primary" or "fundamental" purpose to be?

I know you didn't ask my opinion, but the #1 thing I like about the PCE is the display of points and (to a lesser extent) deck size next to the chat box. (Together, IIRC, this gives you what you'd see with "!status".) Hooray for no info button lag and for current point counts (rather than beginning-of-turn points), and seeing deck size makes Amb tennis more interesting. This is why I originally installed the PCE, back before "!details" info was added to the supply area.

If PCE ends up being generally banned in tournaments, I'd consider creating a version that does nothing except show current point counts next to the chat box, since it seems like most people don't mind that functionality. Then maybe that version would be allowed in tournaments.

(Edit: What I'm not clear on is how much concern there is over the other info displayed by "!status": things like deck size, number of uniques, number of dukes, etc., that are relevant in alt VP games.)

[Captain_Frisk]

My opinions of people--who shall remained unnamed--continue to sink lower and lower until the only opinion left is one of disgust. I need to stop reading this thread. But I keep coming back. Is there anyway to stop my addiction of viewing train wrecks?

Its part of the human condition to watch train wrecks unfortunately, I believe Obi posted the MJ popcorn meme earlier in the thread .

That said you could set this board to ignored if you dont participate in IsoDom?

Thanks for the idea.  I am this close to doing it!  But what would I watch with this tub of popcorn?

[Insomniac]

My opinions of people--who shall remained unnamed--continue to sink lower and lower until the only opinion left is one of disgust. I need to stop reading this thread. But I keep coming back. Is there anyway to stop my addiction of viewing train wrecks?

Its part of the human condition to watch train wrecks unfortunately, I believe Obi posted the MJ popcorn meme earlier in the thread .

That said you could set this board to ignored if you dont participate in IsoDom?

Thanks for the idea.  I am this close to doing it!  But what would I watch with this tub of popcorn?

That is a bit of a dilemma, maybe a movie? or if its mostly your concern of losing respect for people here you could start a BGG thread about how Money beats everything in dominion

[joel88s]

Thanks for the idea.  I am this close to doing it!  But what would I watch with this tub of popcorn?

Who knows, maybe some less confrontational and more scintillating fireworks will appear in your area shortly.

[Turambar]

I wish people would stop accusing me of violating the rules. I didn't, I wouldn't have under any circumstances, and I never will in the future.

Can someon plz post a link to the tournament rules? Are they the "DominionStrategy Championship Rules"?

Because if they are, using the unofficial point counter is clearly cheating (or violating the rules or whatever) as stated in the rules:

If the players are unable to reach an agreement, they shall play with randomly selected cards (excluding any fan-made cards), no veto mode, identical starting hands, and the official point counter.

No, they aren't - those were for the tournament last winter. They were worded similarly though, and I don't think using the extension was illegal in that one either. It's pretty hard for me to see from your rules quote how using it is "clearly cheating". Those words (and the similar ones used for the rules this time) prescribe some things that should be true about games; they don't say anything about what shouldn't be true.

Ok if i quote the full quote of theory in the DominionStrategy Tournament RUles:

Players may, upon mutual consent, agree to play under any constraints they wish (e.g., with/without veto mode, sets limited to a particular expansion, with/without point counter).  If the players are unable to reach an agreement, they shall play with randomly selected cards (excluding any fan-made cards), no veto mode, identical starting hands, and the official point counter.  (Although we understand the objections to point counters, we have no choice but to permit their use because we simply cannot effectively enforce otherwise.)

Since this paragraph concerns all add-ons and constraints, it is clearly implied that if players do not agree, then only the things mentioned are allowed. Now for the National tournament the rules where much more sloppy, but still one should from the wording expect that this wouldn't be allowed in this tournament either.

Now if the extension should be allowed or not in tournaments is completely irrelevant to most of this discussion, the point is that the extension wasn't allowed, and you shouldn't have forced the issue. IMO theory should have refused you using spreadsheets or pen&paper as well. What would you have done then?

[Davio]

A few people have made this weird insinuation that the official point counter is somehow mutually exclusive with the extension. It isn't.

Other than, my response to every post since my last is "please reread the thread". Literally nothing new has been brought to the table.

It isn't mutually exclusive with the extension, sure.  It also isn't explicitly allowed by the rules, which means the rules don't allow it.  You can argue that the rules don't disallow it, but then there is a LOT that the rules don't explicitly disallow.  Davio argues that "well, [certain examples] are obviously cheating" but now you're drawing a line arbitrarily.  In the opinion of many here, using a CARD counter is obviously cheating, and that line is NOT arbitrary, as it is based on the rules of the official game.

The official rules?

You mean the ones that were created for offline real life Dominion and can, by nature of impossible enforcement and impossible life-to-web translations, only be a guideline for the online version?

Or the not-so-official tournament rules? Imho the tournament rules didn't cover what it needed to cover. You can go both ways with this. You can think: "Well, everything that's not in there is allowed." This leads to exaggerated examples, I agree. Or you could go with: "Ok, we can only do what is says here." But that leads to players using spreadsheets instead of the extension and doesn't really make the problem go away.

It would have been funny if Personman had agreed not to use the PCE, this discussion would have never happened and they would have played the final with WW. Now what if Personman said afterwards: "Okay, I confess! I have used a spreadsheet!" Would this have been regarded as cheating? If you think so, good luck with enforcing that one. If not, go take a hypocrisy test, there is no difference from the spreadsheet and the PCE. The PCE makes it easier yes, but the end result is exactly the same.

Well, if the PCE ends up being banned from tournaments, I'm making an offline version that doesn't have the courtesy to tell the other players I'm using it and I will make it freely available to anyone, even the PCE haters, just to prove my point.

Now if the extension should be allowed or not in tournaments is completely irrelevant to most of this discussion, the point is that the extension wasn't allowed, and you shouldn't have forced the issue. IMO theory should have refused you using spreadsheets or pen&paper as well. What would you have done then?

Used them without telling him, obviously.

[RisingJaguar]

Using the poker as an example that has been previously mentioned.   BEFORE all the poker sites legalized the use of them online, if you used it to benefit your game, was it cheating then while the poker sites were... 'silent'. 

Edit: On second thought, it sounds very similar to using steroids in baseball before they were properly banned.  Cheating?

[WanderingWinder]

And surely we don't have to repeat for the millionth time that while you have visions of how the game should be played, you can't implement them willy-nilly; you have to follows the rules of the competition you enter.

And I unquestionably did. I was 100% transparent about my actions, and the tournament organizer approved them as legal (or, in his words, non-DQ-worthy).

Legal is not the same thing as "I won't disqualify you for it". Come on now.

Anyway,, re-reading your posts, you are less agreeable than I had thought yesterday. So I'm going to lay out the argument, step by step, and you can tell me where you disagree with it, ok?

1. This was a tournament which qualified the winner for dominion nationals. (Ok, this isn't relevant, but I want to make sure you'll have something you absolutely can agree with).
2. The tournament was played on isotropic, on the internet.
3. There were rules to this tournament.
4. Special tournament rules were posted on the blog and in these forums.
5. Those rules include that the official point tracker was to be used, identical starting hands ensured.
6. Those rules do not state that the PCE can be used.
7. Those rules say that modifications to the rules may be made with the agreement of ALL participants.
8. We got into a situation where some kinds of negotiations were going on for the finals.
9. There were several parties privy to these negotiations, including you, me, theory, jtl005, and ednever.
10. After understanding what PCE did, both jtl005 and ednever stated preference that you do not use the PCE.
11. I made my claim very clear that I consider the PCE to be in violation of the rules.
12. theory asked you not to use the PCE.
13. theory later told you not to use the PCE - still before he outright 'banned' it.
14. Throughout this period, you made your intentions to use the PCE quite clear.
15. There is no codification of rules written up to supersede, on general grounds, the dominion rules, despite being specific rule adaptions for specific events.
16. Except insofar as expressly countermanded by specific tournament rules (including the mutual agreement clause), the rules of Dominion should remain in effect in this tournament, as there is no alternative objective baseline which is a rival to them AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
17. The rules of dominion do not explicitly allow for external memory aids.
18. Actions pertinent to a game, which are not expressly allowed by the game's rules, are implicitly prohibited by the game's rules.
19. PCE is relevant to the game.
20. PCE was not explicitly allowed.
21. PCE is ergo implicitly prohibited.
22. Rules are rules, regardless of whether or not they can be enforced. They may be stupid rules, or bad rules, but they are rules.
23. You agreed to the rules when signing up for the tournament.
24. The cooperation of all other involved parties clause cannot be invoked here, as there was at least one other involved party, namely myself, which did not agree with PCE use.
25. People ought to do what they agree to do, where possible.
26. Integrity is more important than possessions.
27. Breaking one's agreements violates that person's integrity, without some kind of extenuating change of circumstance between the time of making the agreement and the time at which the agreed upon action is to be undertaken.
28. A rule which there are no consequences for violating is nevertheless a rule.
29. The no memory aids rule is theoretically enforceable.
30. The root of your arguments, ethically, lies in your own, personal, relatively short-term self-interest, as you see it.

Which of these do you find problem with?

[Turambar]

Using the poker as an example that has been previously mentioned.   BEFORE all the poker sites legalized the use of them online, if you used it to benefit your game, was it cheating then while the poker sites were... 'silent'. 

Edit: On second thought, it sounds very similar to using steroids in baseball before they were properly banned.  Cheating?

If theory prohibits use of the extension, then it is properly banned (aka illegal/cheating), no matter if he can enforce it or not.

Now if the extension should be allowed or not in tournaments is completely irrelevant to most of this discussion, the point is that the extension wasn't allowed, and you shouldn't have forced the issue. IMO theory should have refused you using spreadsheets or pen&paper as well. What would you have done then?

Used them without telling him, obviously.

But then he would be cheating, something he claims he would never do, so he could not have done that.

[Personman]

Now if the extension should be allowed or not in tournaments is completely irrelevant to most of this discussion, the point is that the extension wasn't allowed, and you shouldn't have forced the issue. IMO theory should have refused you using spreadsheets or pen&paper as well. What would you have done then?

Used them without telling him, obviously.

No, I actually wouldn't have. That would have been cheating, and I don't cheat. I would have been unhappy, since I would be playing a game whose rules put me at a disadvantage for not cheating in an undetectable way, and I would have complained loudly, but I wouldn't have broken the rules.

Of course, perhaps no one will believe me, because I have a reputation for standing up for the line of argument that people will cheat under those circumstances, so clearly I must be referring to myself, right? In fact, theory even said to me directly that he felt he could not trust me not to cheat if he ruled the counter illegal, which is sad for me on a personal level, but also the absolutely correct position for theory to take, and perfectly good grounds for him NOT to make spreadsheet use illegal. I only wish his distrust extended to everyone, rather than just me. It sucks to be thought of as a cheater just because you are aware of and concerned about the methods and motivations for cheating.

[WanderingWinder]

A few people have made this weird insinuation that the official point counter is somehow mutually exclusive with the extension. It isn't.

Other than, my response to every post since my last is "please reread the thread". Literally nothing new has been brought to the table.

It isn't mutually exclusive with the extension, sure.  It also isn't explicitly allowed by the rules, which means the rules don't allow it.  You can argue that the rules don't disallow it, but then there is a LOT that the rules don't explicitly disallow.  Davio argues that "well, [certain examples] are obviously cheating" but now you're drawing a line arbitrarily.  In the opinion of many here, using a CARD counter is obviously cheating, and that line is NOT arbitrary, as it is based on the rules of the official game.

The official rules?

You mean the ones that were created for offline real life Dominion and can, by nature of impossible enforcement and impossible life-to-web translations, only be a guideline for the online version?

First of all, it is not impossible to enforce them. Second, they can absolutely be the rules for an online version of the game. There is no reason why they cannot. You might think it makes for a lousy online game, but they are not impossible to implement.

Or the not-so-official tournament rules? Imho the tournament rules didn't cover what it needed to cover. You can go both ways with this. You can think: "Well, everything that's not in there is allowed." This leads to exaggerated examples, I agree. Or you could go with: "Ok, we can only do what is says here." But that leads to players using spreadsheets instead of the extension and doesn't really make the problem go away.

No, going the second way, the rules are clear. It is unclear how they are intended to be enforced, but the rules are clear. The problem shifts from having total anarchy because there are no rules, to having problems of enforcing them.

It would have been funny if Personman had agreed not to use the PCE, this discussion would have never happened and they would have played the final with WW. Now what if Personman said afterwards: "Okay, I confess! I have used a spreadsheet!" Would this have been regarded as cheating? If you think so, good luck with enforcing that one. If not, go take a hypocrisy test, there is no difference from the spreadsheet and the PCE. The PCE makes it easier yes, but the end result is exactly the same.

This would actually be quite easy to enforce, as he has confessed, in your scenario, to cheating. However, it is nevertheless cheating, even if he were to do this without confessing. That it is difficult to enforce is a separate problem.
Furthermore, Personman DID implicity agree to this by entering the tournament.

Well, if the PCE ends up being banned from tournaments, I'm making an offline version that doesn't have the courtesy to tell the other players I'm using it and I will make it freely available to anyone, even the PCE haters, just to prove my point.

Ok, so you think it is fine to cheat, so long as you can get away with it. Glad we're square on that.

[WanderingWinder]

Now if the extension should be allowed or not in tournaments is completely irrelevant to most of this discussion, the point is that the extension wasn't allowed, and you shouldn't have forced the issue. IMO theory should have refused you using spreadsheets or pen&paper as well. What would you have done then?

Used them without telling him, obviously.

No, I actually wouldn't have. That would have been cheating, and I don't cheat. I would have been unhappy, since I would be playing a game whose rules put me at a disadvantage for not cheating in an undetectable way, and I would have complained loudly, but I wouldn't have broken the rules.

Of course, perhaps no one will believe me, because I have a reputation for standing up for the line of argument that people will cheat under those circumstances, so clearly I must be referring to myself, right? In fact, theory even said to me directly that he felt he could not trust me not to cheat if he ruled the counter illegal, which is sad for me on a personal level, but also the absolutely correct position for theory to take, and perfectly good grounds for him NOT to make spreadsheet use illegal. I only wish his distrust extended to everyone, rather than just me. It sucks to be thought of as a cheater just because you are aware of and concerned about the methods and motivations for cheating.

Well, I think it is likely the case that he doesn't trust you because you had stated your intentions to cheat quite clearly at that point. Perhaps you wouldn't have actually followed through on them, but you stated your intentions to do so. Furthermore, you have been extremely duplicitous at several steps along the way.

[WanderingWinder]

http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/qucEYpcfqwbbz