Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask  (Read 7994 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
+14

Introduction

So you’d like to learn all about the best ways to play all of the various alternate VP strategies? Well too bad. This isn’t that guide. The purpose of this article is to give general guidelines for how to play with or against general alt vp strategies after someone has decided to take the alt vp plunge.

For the sake of clarity, I will introduce a little terminology that I like to use. Every alt VP can be utilized in at least one of three ways depending on the board: Rush, Slog, and Support. I’ll define these and give guidelines for how to approach these games when you are playing these strategies, either uncontested or in a mirror, or how to counter an opponent who does.

The Rush
Common Players: Silk Road, Gardens

Typically, whether engines or big money, you begin the game by ramping up your deck quality and then switching to buying green. The rush strategy aims to end the game as soon as possible, while your opponent’s deck is still setting up.

Uncontested

When rushing uncontested, it is often best to get a large number of the support cards before any of the green. The reason is simple, you are looking to drain 3 piles as quickly as you can. The support card pile is often one of those you aim to drain and getting more of them early acts as an accelerant, letting you drain the green pile faster towards the end of your rush. Keep a close eye on your opposition, however. They may try to steal some of your green. And while you appreciate the help expediting the end of the game, you still can’t give up too many points or else you could find yourself falling behind.

If your rush begins to fail, and things are coming together too fast for your opponent, you find yourself in the position of no longer being able to end the game. Now you’re in bad shape. But the very cards which are good in rushes also tend to be decent enough in slogs that you can try to transition into a new game plan as a desperation ploy. As for how to play the slog, well, keep reading.

Mirror

If you find both you and your opponent going for a rush strategy, you need to rethink your plan. In fact, ending the game ASAP is no longer a priority since you know your opponent isn’t building up to province level points. These games actually play somewhat closer to standard non alt VP games.

Your main goal becomes instead to win the VP split. And if you can sneak in a duchy or two, all the better. As such, you want to start greening much much sooner than if you are uncontested. If you win the split, you find yourself in a nice position and your goal switches back into ending the game soon, since unlike with Provinces, draining your alt VP pile doesn’t end it then and there. Switch back into rush mode and drain those other piles. If you find yourself on the wrong end of the point split, you need to rebuild your shambled economy and hope to be able to grab some provinces or duchies before your opponent can end it. This means that at almost all costs, avoid piles that are likely to drain, including estates. While the couple extra points might be nice in a low scoring game, you are only hastening your own demise.

Counter

Sometimes, you deem the rush support inadequate and opt to go the traditional VP route, only to see your opponent come to a different conclusion. Whether you underestimated the rush potential or your opponent overestimated it, you should no longer play as you would in a province mirror.

For a standard Gardens/Silk Road rush, the rusher will probably have about 35 points at game end. For you, that means about 5.5 Provinces. That’s actually somewhat daunting for many games. However, you could also steal a few of the rushed green cards yourself. Say your opponent’s gardens will be worth 3 points end game and yours will only be worth 2. Well, every garden you buy, that’s a 5 point swing. Almost as good as a Province, and for half the price. The drawback, of course, is that each rushed green card you buy brings the game closer to piling out, which you don’t want until you can secure some more points. It’s a tricky balance and completely dependent on game state, but usually it’s a good bet to steal 2-3 of the rushed green cards later in the game, while focusing on pounding enough provinces and duchies to secure a VP lead.


The Slog
Likely Candidates: Duke, Fairgrounds, Vineyards, Silk Road, Gardens, Goons

Like a rush, a slog seeks to gain the bulk of it's points from sources other than Provinces. Unlike, a rush, however, it does not seek to end the game quickly. Just the opposite, you want the game to go on as long as possible. Either the cards you are slogging with continually increase in value (like Gardens or Vineyards), or they put you in a strong position to obtain more than half of the available VP (like Dukes or Fairgrounds).

Uncontested

Uncontested, you play exactly unlike how you play a rush. Slow the game down. This often means don’t buy provinces, even with $8. Getting all 8 provinces by yourself is quite an ordeal. Unless there is a good mega turn engine out there, decks begin to crawl to a halt once you pass the 5 or 6 province mark. It’s the last couple provinces which are the toughest ones to get, so if you buy a province or two, you’ve made the game significantly shorter.

Attacks are also very good at slowing the game down, particularly cursers and hand size reducers. These attacks tend to hurt the province player much more than the alt VP player.

Mirror

As with rushes, when in a mirror strategy, the main goal is to win the important VP split. Often this means dipping into the green a little early and then working on increasing their value after you secure the split.

Counter

How do you counter a slog? With a rush. Specifically, you rush provinces. But don’t just start buying them out right away. You need a solid game plan. Don’t expect any help from your opponent in draining them. You need to get 8 all by your lonesome. In normal province matches, you end up diverting for duchies once the Province pile starts to dwindle. You do NOT want duchies here (excepting Duke games). Every green card you get that isn’t a Province pushes the end of the game further from you, making it easier for your opponent to secure the VP lead. Keep your eye on the target and get draining. Particularly nice here are end game accelerators like Remodel and Salvager. If you find yourself in a rush for provinces don’t be afraid to pick up a number of these types of cards in the mid-game.

As with rushes, you also want to consider denying green to your opponent. But in this case, every extra green you get lengthens the game instead of shortening it because it becomes harder for you to buy Provinces. So again, you need to figure out the proper balance between denial and game length. Remember to think of each VP you buy as a sum of the points it gives you and the points it denies your opponents. If I only have 2 duchies, I might still buy a duke in the late game, because it’s an 8 point swing.

Support
Works with: All of them

Most alt VP cards are not strong enough to give you the option to forgo Provinces. But even if you choose to pursue a more standard Province based strategy, the precense of alt VPs can significantly alter the landscape of the game by providing support. We can even consider curse giving cards as a form of this. It is important to consider the total number of points available in any kingdom. With no alt vp’s or curses, including starting estates, there are 86 total points. That means once you secure 44 points, you’ve won. But add in even the lowly Great Hall, and you increase the number of points you need to guarantee victory. This does one very important thing, it takes pressure away from winning the Province split. With enough support, you could lose the province split 6-2 or even 7-1 and still pull off victory.

Generally, this benefits engines greatly. Each support VP you add, the more time you have to set up against a big money opponent. As big money slows to a crawl once the green starts coming, you can keep on building up, looking to snatch enough points to close out the win. Particularly nice are dual type victory cards as they do more than just junk up your deck.

Colonies

No alt VP has a greater average effect than Colony and it’s life partner Platinum. You can have 8 point dukes and I’ll stick with my 10 point colonies. And good luck competing with fairgrounds without black market, or Vineyards without a killer kingdom. Colonies beat all but the best supported slogs because there are just so many more points on the board to get. And they beat all but the fastest rushes because I only need 2-3 colonies to beat you instead of 4-5 provinces.

It’s probably best to think of Colonies as support VP. Or at least, they behave that way. Since you add 80 points to the game, you give engines a lot more time to set up and big money tends to fall by the wayside.

Multiplayer Considerations

My analysis is mostly based for 2 player Dominion. However, alt vp can change things significantly when more than 2 players are going at it.

Consider 3 player dominion. Imagine you want to try a rush strategy but the other two players don’t follow you. Now you need to drain 12 of whatever card you are rushing, and likely 12 estates as well. That’s 8 extra cards you need, which gives the non-rushers plenty more time to get their engines together. Now consider the opposite case. 2 rushers vs 1 non-rusher. With 2 rushers, there are only 6 vp cards to get per player. That means the rush is even faster, giving the province player even less time to set up.

A similar thing happens with slogs. If one player wants to go provinces, well there are now 12 of them. If 8 is hard to get, 12 might take forever. On the flip side, if two players want provinces, there are only 6 per player which is significantly easier than 8.

These effects are even more pronounced with 4 or more players where the number of victory cards doesn’t increase with the number of players.

tl;dr Alt VP's are cool.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 12:37:58 pm by jonts26 »
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3413
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 04:17:59 pm »
+1

Not only are Colonies good to counter a rush (or slog) because of the 10 points they give you, they're also good because you can fall back on Provinces.

If you've gotten a Platinum or two and a few Colonies, a hand with one Platinum is almost a Province as you only need $3 from your four other cards. If you would have been playing a Province game, you would have to fall back on Duchies and this might be a pile that the rusher is trying to run out as well, so you can't just dig into them without consideration.

Once the Colony player has gotten himself over the hill, he will be more than happy to help you end the game if you are rushing some alt VP cards.


Something I often see with beginning players is that they try to join the rush once their opponent has started. They seem to panic and just grab any VP cards to "steal" them away from the rushing player. The rushing player doesn't mind, his deck is probably better suited to play that game. You shouldn't panic if you didn't notice that there was a good rush possibility in the kingdom and you didn't spot it.

Helping the other player is almost a guaranteed way to lose the game. Of course, you could get a favorable split with your small economy lead, but you're better off just trying to grab a couple of Provinces. Look at it this way: If it takes 4 turns for you to grab 2 Provinces, that gives the same amount of VP as spending all 4 turns grabbing Duchies. But grabbing the Duchies gives the other player another possible pile to drain if he wasn't doing so already. Once you've gotten a slight lead, it's easier for you to end the game with a couple of low piles than for him to come back and suddenly grab a Province himself.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

timchen

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 704
  • Shuffle iT Username: allfail
  • Respect: +235
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 04:55:02 pm »
0

A few points/question about Gardens:

(1) How strong is workshop/gardens really? I actually find this surprisingly weak as a rush. Much much weaker than ironworks/gardens of course. But it seems even only have a slight edge (if there is an edge at all) on say, BM+smithy.

(2) I think Garden is not a slog card usually. Unless you have very strong support. Cache/Border Village/Haggler or similar things; but in those cases usually you play with Provinces as well, so it is more like a support card.
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2012, 05:02:17 pm »
0

A few points/question about Gardens:

(1) How strong is workshop/gardens really? I actually find this surprisingly weak as a rush. Much much weaker than ironworks/gardens of course. But it seems even only have a slight edge (if there is an edge at all) on say, BM+smithy.

(2) I think Garden is not a slog card usually. Unless you have very strong support. Cache/Border Village/Haggler or similar things; but in those cases usually you play with Provinces as well, so it is more like a support card.

1) Not that strong really. In the base set it was a lot stronger, but there's a lot more that just smokes it now. And yeah, IW is leagues better.

2) True, you need good support. I considered leaving it off the slog list but, well, then someone would probably complain about that too. Oh well.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 02:31:22 am »
0

This is a good concept, and has good information, but if you're going to call the article "Everything you wanted to know about alt VPs...", you should at least mention all the sources of alt VPs somewhere. You don't mention Island, Bishop, Nobles, Harem, Great Hall, Tunnel, Monument, Farmland and probably a couple others. Bishop and Nobles should fit into what you call the "slog" family, and to some extent, all alt VP cards do, since the presence of more points makes it harder to end the game by grabbing half the points.
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 02:53:42 am »
0

I figured the phrase 'every single alt vp' would cover all the unnamed cards. I think you're confusing what I call a slog and what I call support. Nobles certainly is not a slog. Bishop might be, but rarely. Both cards are support, as are all the other cards you mention. And I do mention the part about alt vp's and total number of victory points and all that.
Logged

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +749
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 02:57:13 am »
0

Great Hall, ect all add a set amount of VP to the game; they are not variables.
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 03:12:24 am »
0

I figured the phrase 'every single alt vp' would cover all the unnamed cards. I think you're confusing what I call a slog and what I call support. Nobles certainly is not a slog. Bishop might be, but rarely. Both cards are support, as are all the other cards you mention. And I do mention the part about alt vp's and total number of victory points and all that.
Yeah, I guess my problem is that you use the term "slog" without definition. While the "support" section mentions that they help engines more, I think it comes off as sounding like a minor point. Many of the alternative sources of VPs almost force the game to be an engine game (which is what it sounded to me like what you were calling "slog" -- I'm still unclear, because you're not using the term the way people usually do).
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 04:00:56 am »
0

This is a useful way of thinking about the game.  I particularly liked
Quote
Unless there is a good mega turn engine out there, decks begin to crawl to a halt once you pass the 5 or 6 province mark. It’s the last couple provinces which are the toughest ones to get, so if you buy a province or two, you’ve made the game significantly shorter.
which is not something I've heard made explicit before.

jonts is using Slog to describe games where you aim to score big using alt VP and dragging the game out so that your choice of alt VP is worth a lot of points.  Support refers to the case when you're aiming for Provinces/Colonies but pick up alt VP along the way for a few bonus points (tiebreaker plus).
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 05:11:54 am by qmech »
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 04:20:12 am »
+1

^By your definition "dragging the game out so that your choice of alt VP is worth a lot of points", only Vineyards, Gardens, Silks, Goons, and Bishop fit. Fairgrounds and Duke cap out in value pretty quick. And with Fairgrounds (and even Duke), you don't want to drag the game out significantly more than with Nobles. If you give them time to get all the Provinces, you still lose. It is true that a Nobles deck relies more on Provinces for points than any of the listed decks, so the definition must have something to do with where the majority of your points come from. But it's still unclear from the article. There should definitely be a definition at the start of the section.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 05:14:18 am »
0

I reversed the order of my post to make it clearer that the bit surrounding the quote was intended to refer to the article.

I agree that "slog" does not capture the essential features of all non-rush alt VP-focused strategies.
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 12:39:16 pm »
0

OK I edited the article to be a bit more clear about how I am defining things.
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 12:43:07 pm »
0

^By your definition "dragging the game out so that your choice of alt VP is worth a lot of points", only Vineyards, Gardens, Silks, Goons, and Bishop fit. Fairgrounds and Duke cap out in value pretty quick. And with Fairgrounds (and even Duke), you don't want to drag the game out significantly more than with Nobles. If you give them time to get all the Provinces, you still lose. It is true that a Nobles deck relies more on Provinces for points than any of the listed decks, so the definition must have something to do with where the majority of your points come from. But it's still unclear from the article. There should definitely be a definition at the start of the section.

I disagree with your assessment of Duke and Fairgrounds. If your opponent is not pursuing those cards, you do want the game to go on as long as possible, because you are in a much better position to secure half of the VPs. With dukes I can let my opponent easily take all 8 provinces if I can take 7-8 duchies and a handful of Dukes. Even if he steals a couple of duchies, I still claim half the VP's on all the Duchies and Dukes which are significantly easier to get than Provinces. Similarly with Fairgrounds, if they only get up to 6 points, I probably still want a province or two, but generally the fact that they are cheaper means that I can start in on them earlier and then switch to duchies. If I took all the Fairgrounds, my opponent can have all the provinces as long as I secure the duchy split. If the board is nice enough to let Fairgrounds be worth more than 6? Well then even better.
Logged

PSGarak

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Respect: +160
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 04:27:34 pm »
+1

Duchess belongs under "Rush." It's not a victory card in itself, but it enables a Rush strategy on the Duchies by emptying a second pile for free. Speaking of Duchess, it's important to note when you're rushing: You're buying cards to empty piles, not necessarily to have cards in your deck. Buying a card just to trash it with Watchtower is a rational play decision.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 08:23:58 pm »
+2

OK. It loooks better and makes sense now. There are only a couple more things:
1. Vineyards can also be rushed with Hamlets
2. There is something in between "uncontested" and mirror. That's "contested" or "blocked", where your opponent grabs some of your key card to block (Duchy or Fairgrounds). Each blocked Duchy is an 14 point swing assuming you get all the Dukes. And each Fairgrounds is a 10 point swing, assuming your opponent has 10 differently named cards. I used to think Fairgrounds were great because they basically turn into cheap Provinces, making you stall-proof, but it turns out that they are really easy to block for an opponent as they stall out. If they block a couple Fairgrounds and you can't buy Provinces before the game piles out, you'll lose. For this reason you can't really just stretch out the game to win on Fairgrounds. You still need to get them in a timely manner. (This is why I think Fairgrouds games can't really be much longer than Nobles games, though by your definition, Nobles is clearly not a "slog").
3. Bishop can still definitely play a slog by your current definition. If you have a way of gaining cards to feed to the Bishop, it can easily produce more points than Provinces.
Logged

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: Everything you wanted to know about alt VP but were afraid to ask
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2012, 09:30:49 pm »
+1

Yes, Bishop can DEFINITELY be a source of long term VP to beat province or even a good colony strategy.  Such as this, although it's more of a different style golden deck.  Or here.  And others.
Logged
A man on a mission.
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 2.05 seconds with 22 queries.