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[ycz6]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/23/game-20120623-070649-27611f31.html

Looking at the final scores, it seems like I probably greened a little bit early, and maybe should've picked up a Market for +Buy at some point? Honestly, though, I can't see a single point in the game where I'd do something different now than what I did here. Should I have Embargoed University or Peddler instead of Alchemist, and not gotten the second Embargo with 5?

---

MrEevee wins!
Merchant Ships, Markets, Estates, and Duchies are all gone.

cards in supply: Alchemist, Embargo, Explorer, Haven, Market, Merchant Ship, Moat, Peddler, Potion, Quarry, and University

#1 MrEevee: 40 points (6 Duchies, 2 Provinces, and 10 Estates); 23 turns
         opening: Silver / Potion
         [56 cards] 10 Markets, 8 Merchant Ships, 5 Havens, 3 Universities, 1 Explorer, 7 Coppers, 3 Silvers, 1 Potion, 10 Estates, 6 Duchies, 2 Provinces

#2 ycz6: 34 points (4 Provinces, 2 Duchies, and 4 Estates); 23 turns
      opening: Silver / Silver
      [31 cards] 2 Merchant Ships, 7 Coppers, 6 Silvers, 6 Golds, 4 Estates, 2 Duchies, 4 Provinces

[qmech]

This looks to be a strong set for University, as you don't need any Treasure at all to have a roaring economy.  Embargo is a mild disincentive, but it's going to take too long to Embargo all of the options.  So the main answer to "What should I have done differently?" is probably "Open Potion/Silver".

As a BM/Merchant Ship game, you don't have anything like enough Merchant Ships, and you almost never want 6 Gold in any type of BM.  The third Merchant Ship is almost certainly better than Gold, and you probably want to pick up a fourth eventually.  You're also missing the two Silver buys that went on Embargoes, which doesn't help either.  The game runs a long time, and the University is always going to be in a better position eventually.

[Rabid]

Isn't Peddler really good on this board?
University is better than Alchemist here I think you should have embargo'ed it first.

[Eevee]

Isn't Peddler really good on this board?
University is better than Alchemist here I think you should have embargo'ed it first.

It was (smartly) embargoed after alchemist, on turn 9.

[blueblimp]

Hm, this is definitely a board where I'd skip University. No strong draw, no villages, and Embargo. So I'm really surprised it worked.

[Rabid]

Isn't Peddler really good on this board?
University is better than Alchemist here I think you should have embargo'ed it first.

It was (smartly) embargoed after alchemist, on turn 9.

Ah, thanks.

[O]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

[RisingJaguar]

I think you incredibly unlucky with your draws.  Your provinces buy's hands were $9, $11, $11, $13... So that's pretty unlucky.  Although I'm guessing the T8 Gold/Province decision looks not so great in hindsight (not sure I would think Province is better here?).

Overall, 34 points with MS BM seems really small after 23 turns, after considering the divergent embargo strategy (which was neccessary).  Other then that T8 decision, I don't see anything odd decisions here. 

[DG]

As the game was played I think you had the better deck and were unlucky with the gold drawing badly. Turn 15 should have been a duchy. Yes embargo the alchemists+peddlers. Sometimes you can lose first player initiative by choosing a reactive embargo strategy and maybe that happened here.

There's a lot of ways to play this though. Lots of openings

[WanderingWinder]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

[Eevee]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Hm, this is definitely a board where I'd skip University. No strong draw, no villages, and Embargo. So I'm really surprised it worked.

I would have preferred alchemists (after the first university) but embargo is what embargo does.

[O]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

...which is why I never buy alchemist. Right.

Though I was assuming Alchemist player threw in a MS or two, not sure how that changes anything.

[Eevee]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

You mean on that board, i have to open potion, you are not allowed to buy anything but merchant ships, peddlers, vp and money, you CRUSH?

[WanderingWinder]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

You mean on that board, i have to open potion, you are not allowed to buy anything but merchant ships, peddlers, vp and money, you CRUSH?

And markets. But no, because university exists. What you're saying should be right if university weren't on the board.

[Eevee]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

You mean on that board, i have to open potion, you are not allowed to buy anything but merchant ships, peddlers, vp and money, you CRUSH?

And markets. But no, because university exists. What you're saying should be right if university weren't on the board.

Well d'uh?
If we are analyzing my decision to open potion, why are we excluding universities here when getting one or two before the alchemists is like the main reason the strategy is good?

[WanderingWinder]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

You mean on that board, i have to open potion, you are not allowed to buy anything but merchant ships, peddlers, vp and money, you CRUSH?

And markets. But no, because university exists. What you're saying should be right if university weren't on the board.

Well d'uh?
If we are analyzing my decision to open potion, why are we excluding universities here when getting one or two before the alchemists is like the main reason the strategy is good?

Because we aren't analyzing that. I'm not anyway. I'm analyzing the statement "MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/buy". Then I say that Alchemist/Market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. And I talk about MS, market, peddler, and alchemist, but never particularly this board, or university in there.
I agree with Rabid and qmech that university is key here.

[Eevee]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

I agree with O, without the embargo this looks like an alchemist board (I was planning on buying a significant amount of alchemists, something I cant say very often at all). Sure, I was going to have more markets and peddlers than alchemists, but clearly alchemists were still a key part of it.

Apparently just universities, markets and merchant ships was enough, but I guess I got quite lucky.

[RisingJaguar]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

Wait, MS/Market/Peddler BM? When does the BM player buy markets? and then would that player really have enough action density to buy peddlers?  I assume this is pretty similar to MS BM with maybe 1-2 markets in between stocked up on MS and pre-duchy buying. 

[DG]

When does the BM player buy markets?

When the opponent embargoes gold.

[WanderingWinder]

Without embargo this looks like an Alchemist board tbh, MS BM probably isn't strong enough to beat Alchemist/+buy.

Alchemist/market isn't strong enough to beat Big Money. MS BM will crush it. Add in peddler, and you draw ahead of BMU, but still must be behind MS/Market/Peddler BM

Wait, MS/Market/Peddler BM? When does the BM player buy markets? and then would that player really have enough action density to buy peddlers?  I assume this is pretty similar to MS BM with maybe 1-2 markets in between stocked up on MS and pre-duchy buying. 

He buys market if he gets stuck on 5 a LOT. I would guess. Though it MIGHT be worth it for the peddlers? And/or to block. But generally I think it largely will be similar to MS BM, yes.

[Empathy]

Why not open embargo/potion?

Embargoing gold should hurt BM a fair bit. The engine deck does need it's early buying power for the early turns, but not as much mid-game (when you want to maximize university/market cycling), so the opportunity cost of embargo vs silver is not that high. Oh, and no terminal collision.

[RisingJaguar]

When does the BM player buy markets?

When the opponent embargoes gold.

Oh the scenario that WW brought up seem like embargoes weren't apart of the question as alchemists were suddenly back into the scenario. 

But yes if he embargoes gold, then you buy markets, but then you would also be embargoing (ideally) peddlers as the university player should be able to gain peddlers much faster.