Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: Grand Market  (Read 14145 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2011, 05:38:37 pm »
0

If you add Black Market to get the full 12 green cards into play, you can afford the 4th GM in multiplayer but I don't know if you can get 4 buys though.

I don't think the Black market can help out here.  I don't think there would be Trade Route tokens on victory cards in the BM deck, and you can't get Kingdom cards out of the BM until turn 3 when it is too late.

RobF

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2011, 07:10:13 pm »
0

If you add Black Market to get the full 12 green cards into play, you can afford the 4th GM in multiplayer but I don't know if you can get 4 buys though.

I don't think the Black market can help out here.  I don't think there would be Trade Route tokens on victory cards in the BM deck, and you can't get Kingdom cards out of the BM until turn 3 when it is too late.
Hmm, seems you're right - Isotropic at least doesn't increase the TR count for BM buys.  In a multiplayer game, you could get the Kingdom cards out on an earlier person's turn 3 in time for your turn 3 later on.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 07:20:49 pm by RobF »
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2011, 10:33:10 pm »
0

Hmm, seems you're right - Isotropic at least doesn't increase the TR count for BM buys.  In a multiplayer game, you could get the Kingdom cards out on an earlier person's turn 3 in time for your turn 3 later on.

You could get them on a previous players turn three, but they would be in their discard, and you wouldn't be able to get them even though Masquerade.  I am pretty sure there isn't anyway to get card into the Grand Market players hand even if you Watchtower-ed it because it would always be one hand behind on the Masquerade (and I am pretty sure there is no good solution where the GM buyer plays Masq).

Also, most of the kingdom cards are required in multiples, so Black Market wouldn't be good enough anyway.

I do have my 5 player 4 Grand Market buy solution written up, so I will try to post it sometime tomorrow.

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2011, 12:49:42 pm »
0

I think I might be the only one still interested here, but I am having fun, so no harm there I suppose.

Before I started throwing solutions up I just wanted to see if anyone thought any of these would be worth a blog post.  I have had a lot of fun with these, and think it is complicated enough and interesting enough to put out there, but I don't know if anyone agrees, or if Theory even has time to deal with puzzle responses right now.

Here is a long list of puzzles/solutions I have found:
One player gains 6 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 4 player game.
One player gains 8 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 6 player game. 
(I think michaeljb may have come up with these first two before me, but I was too focused on the method I was using and thought these would take more than 10 Kingdom cards.)
One player buys (no direct gains) 4 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 5 player game.
 
If you allow more than 10 Kingdom cards you can also do:
One player gains 9 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 6 player game.
One player buys (no direct gains) 6 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 6 player game.

I have yet to find a way to pull off gaining all 10 without exceeding 6 players.

Again, I just thought I would see what people think.  If anyone thinks it is worth a post, I can send solutions to an Admin, and if not, I'll just post the crazy Grand Market buying up here.

Elyv

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2011, 12:56:55 pm »
0

I would love to see all the answers, but I don't really care whether or not they go on the blog.
Logged

LetsGame

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
    • play-agricola.com
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2011, 01:16:55 pm »
0

Do these two cards combine? If so, here's a solution for solo:
Quarry/Workshop

shark_bait

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1103
  • Shuffle iT Username: shark_bait
  • Luckyfin and Land of Hinter for iso aliases
  • Respect: +1868
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2011, 01:40:24 pm »
0

Do these two cards combine? If so, here's a solution for solo:
Quarry/Workshop

Sorry, they don't.  You play your workshop in your action phase, thus before quarries effect goes into play.  However, if you played a black market, you could play a quarry during your action phase, then play workshop and gain a grand market.  This required the use of a village though.
Logged
Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2115
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2011, 02:56:19 pm »
0

(I think michaeljb may have come up with these first two before me, but I was too focused on the method I was using and thought these would take more than 10 Kingdom cards.)
Actually, nope. When you mentioned Masquerade and a large number of players Quarry and Talisman were jus the first cards that came to mind, but I haven't done any more work on maximizing number of Grand Markets on Turn 3.

To cover a couple things that have been pointed out in regards to the "original rules" of the puzzle, I was really just looking at ways to buy a Grand Market with no friendly interaction from other players (of course my Menagerie solution requires both players to play Sea Hag--or at least the first plays Sea Hag then the second plays an attack card that won't mess with your hand size--so that is sort of helpful interaction but not friendly in the same sense as buffing the Trade Route mat or Masquerading you useful cards).

I'm definitely a fan of the turn the discussion has taken towards getting gaining a whole bunch of GMs on Turn 3, regardless of helpful interaction--that's just awesome! So don't worry, you're not still the only one interested. 8) I might even try to work on my own solutions now...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 02:58:32 pm by michaeljb »
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2115
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2011, 03:33:24 pm »
0

I just got one player gaining all 10 Grand Markets on Turn 3 of a 6 player game  :D
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2011, 04:09:32 pm »
0

I just got one player gaining all 10 Grand Markets on Turn 3 of a 6 player game  :D

Hmmm, well I am still stumped on that at this point.  Is this a solution with more than 10 Kingdom cards, or no?

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2115
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2011, 04:13:21 pm »
0

I just got one player gaining all 10 Grand Markets on Turn 3 of a 6 player game  :D

Hmmm, well I am still stumped on that at this point.  Is this a solution with more than 10 Kingdom cards, or no?
No. In fact, it does not need even 10 Kingdom cards. I can post the exact number if you'd like.
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2011, 05:27:41 pm »
0

I think I just have to be on the wrong path because I can't make it work.

With 6 players, I can get 6 cards into the 6th players 3rd turn, 5 of which can cost up to $4, and one can only be up to $3.  If I could find a way around that $3 card to make it $4 I have a solution, but I am not seeing a way to do that.

I know I need +4(5) buys and 1 Talisman, or 3/2, 2/3, 1/4.  However, I also need enough money to buy 5, 4, 3 or 2 Grand Markets.  Basically, every card I use has to either be a Talisman or give a +buy except one, which only leaves me one slot for a Quarry, but that leaves the GMs at $4 (unless I Bridge them, but that isn't getting me there either), and I haven't generated nearly enough coins to buy them.

I guess my main curiosity would be if you are using more than 6 cards, or if you are using 6 $4 cards, because that would mean I am missing something from my main setup, or it is completely wrong.  Also, if you are pulling any crazy shenanigans like what went on in the "buy all the Colonies on turn 5" puzzle, feel free to just post the solution because I am not interested in going there. :-)

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2115
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2011, 05:38:26 pm »
0

In my solution Player 6 plays 1 Action card, then has 6 cards in hand, 5 of which cost $4. You need only one slot for Quarry.* My Kingdom requires 6 cards--well, 5 and Grand Market--4 of which cost $4 or less. As a final hint, something you were pretty sure of in an earlier post is wrong.

*it's a spoiler within a spoiler!
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

lefaiison

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2011, 05:43:15 pm »
0

I'll take a stab at it...


You are Player 6.  Player 1 buys Council Room/X.  Player 2-5 buy Talisman/Masquerade.  You buy Quarry/Masquerade.

P1 plays Council Room giving everyone 6 cards and buys a Contraband (You have Q/M/c/c/c/c)
P2 plays Masquerade, everyone passes their Talisman down (P1 passes their Contraband). (You have Q/M/T/c/c/c)
P3 does the same. (You have Q/M/T/T/c/c)
P4 does the same. (You have Q/M/T/T/T/c)
P5 does the same. (You have Q/M/T/T/T/T),
You play Masquerade, getting the Contraband, and with Q/C/T/T/T/T, you buy two Grand Markets and gain the remaining 8.

Logged

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2115
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2011, 05:46:44 pm »
0

I'll take a stab at it...
Looks like that works, but I didn't use Council Room. Our solutions do end with "You"/Player 6 playing the same Treasures.
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

lefaiison

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2011, 05:50:09 pm »
0

Without Council Room I'm not sure how to get that Contraband into P6's hands.
Logged

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2115
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2011, 05:57:42 pm »
0

Without Council Room I'm not sure how to get that Contraband into P6's hands.
With Council Room, P6 plays Masquerade then has 1 Copper and those other Treasures in hand, but that Copper obviously doesn't need to be there, so one way to look at it is that Council Room gave P6 an extra slot in hand that eventually went to a Copper instead of something useful.
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2011, 06:12:30 pm »
0

Hmmm, I guess that's why I was only pretty sure. 


I totally missed pulling something into the last players hand with Masquerade, but I also had totally overlooked the treasure tricks in my first attempts. 

lefaiison,
I think the detail you missed might be that the last player does not start with his Quarry in hand.  He just has Masq and 4 Coppers.  He then receives the 4 Talisman to replace his Coppers, plays his Masq, draws Quarry and a Copper, passes the Copper and receives the Contraband.

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2115
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2011, 06:23:06 pm »
0

Hmmm, I guess that's why I was only pretty sure. 


I totally missed pulling something into the last players hand with Masquerade, but I also had totally overlooked the treasure tricks in my first attempts. 

lefaiison,
I think the detail you missed might be that the last player does not start with his Quarry in hand.  He just has Masq and 4 Coppers.  He then receives the 4 Talisman to replace his Coppers, plays his Masq, draws Quarry and a Copper, passes the Copper and receives the Contraband.

And this means all P1 has to do is buy a Contraband (instead of a Council Room) and pass it on down...

My original solution had Players 1-4 opening Talisman/Masquerade, Player 5 Contraband/Herbalist, and Player 6 Quarry Masquerade. Players pass the Talismans on down, and when it gets to Player 5's turn, he just puts Talisman back on his deck so he can pass it to Player 6, but having Player 1 buy Contraband eliminates the need for Herbalist.
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2011, 01:01:50 am »
0

Okay, so it took a while to back to this, but I am still going to find time to post some of the more amusing attempts I made at this one.  Some of them are now inferior since michaeljb found the ultimate solution that can grab all 10, but I am still intrigued by a number of the things that fell out of my attempts.

Here is my best solution to the problem if you are restricted to literally buying the Grand Markets and aren't allowed to gain them with Talisman (or Ironworks or Workshop, though I doubt either of those would be useful).


5 Player "Buy" 4 Grand Markets Turn 3

10 Kingdom Cards:
Council Room
Island
Great Hall
Throne Room
Masquerade
Trade Route
Harem
Nobles
Fairgrounds
Grand Market

Player 1 opens: Council Room/Estate(1)
Player 2 opens: Island(2)/Great Hall(3)
Player 3 opens: Throne Room/Masquerade
Player 4 opens: Trade Route/Masquerade
Player 5 opens: Throne Room/Trade Route

                       Player 1                  Player 2            Player 3             Player 4             Player 5
Turn 3 draw:    CR/C/C/C/C             C/C/C/C/C        ThR/M/C/C/C      TR/M/X/x/X        TR/ThR/X/X/X

Player 1 plays Council Room   
New hands:      C/C/C/C/C/C/X/X     C/C/C/C/C/C    ThR/M/C/C/C/C    TR/M/X/X/X/X    TR/ThR/X/X/X/X
Player 1 buys Harem(4)

Player 2 buys Nobles(5)

Player 3 plays Masquerade
Passes:            X->                         X->                 (+C/C) ThR->      TR->                  X->
New Hands:     X/X/X/X/X                X/X/X/X/X        C/C/C/C/C/C/X    ThR/M/X/X/X/X   TR/TR/ThR/X/X/X
Player 3 buys Fairgrounds(6)

Player 4 plays Masquerade   
Passes:            X->                         X->                 X->                     (+X/X) ThR->     X->
New Hands:     X/X/X/X/X    X/X/X/X/X    X/X/X/X/X    X/X/X/X/X/X    TR/TR/ThR/ThR/X/X
Player 4 Buys Nothing.

Player 5 plays Throne Room.
and...    plays Throne Room
            and...    plays Trade Route Gaining +$6 and +1 buy.  Trashing X
                         and plays Trade Route again, Gaining +$6 and +1 buy.  Trashing X
             and plays Throne Room again
             and...    plays Trade Route Gaining +$6 and +1 buy.  No cards left in hand.         
                          and plays Trade Route again Gaining +$6 and +1 buy.  No cards left in hand.

Player 5 had $24 and 5 buys.
Player 5 buys 4 Grand Markets


Random notes:
Player 4 could by a Duchy, but it wouldn't get us enough for another GM. 
One of the $6 VP cards could also be swapped out for Duchy to reduce the Kingdom set to 9.


This one I actually think feels a bit unoptimized and doesn't do anything too interesting, but it is the only solution like this that stays at or under 10 Kingdom cards.  The real fun begins when you go over 10, and I will put them up when I find time.  They include buying 6 Grand Markets with 6 players (just an extension of this one, but with some very interesting turns), and my best attempt at a solution that gains some of their GMs, which got to 9. That one gets a bit crazy, and is really just a monument to the time I wasted on this.

Blooki

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 118
  • I am constantly overmeditated...
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Grand Market
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2011, 08:49:47 pm »
0

Who says going last is a disadvantage?
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.052 seconds with 21 queries.