Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3  (Read 9555 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3413
    • View Profile
Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« on: June 22, 2012, 09:54:54 am »
+1

After reading the thread about Marin, the crazy scientist I wondered: Which terminals warrant a double terminal opening with 4/3?

Obviously, a lot of $5's are so good that you're happy to buy a Chapel alongside (Mountebank, Witch, Ghost Ship), but for 4/3 it's a different story.

- Swindler/Swindler is already mentioned in the topic
- Ambassador/Ambassador can be useful, especially with a cheap Village in the kingdom
- Workshop/Workshop for Gardens (counting Ironworks as a non-terminal for this case)

Any more?

Have we become too afraid of terminal collision? I almost never open double terminal unless I think it's really good. More often than not, I go with Silver/terminal.

I could just grab all the openings off of Councilroom, but I'd like to start a more general discussion.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2012, 10:36:40 am »
0

One thing I think is important to consider is, how important are the 5's?  Terminal collision almost never nukes you so hard you get stuck with 2$, so the risk your facing is hitting a collision and having to buy a 3 instead of a 5.  But on some boards, Silver is really close to the crappy 5's.
Logged

Young Nick

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 561
  • Respect: +275
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2012, 10:44:53 am »
+1

I'd say that it is definitely an underrated tactic, to open with two terminals. Especially in multiplayer, where high-variance strategies are necessary, I am fond of opening something like Chancellor/Swindler. Also, if you are going for an engine, I think that it can be quite helpful. Something like terminal trasher/terminal Silver like Remake/Swindler.

My two cents, at least.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 10:48:04 am »
+1

Chancellor/Swindler over Swindler/Swindler?  I'm a pretty big Chancellor fan compared to most people but, Swindler is a curser.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9631
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 11:02:10 am »
0

If there's an attack and a trasher, I'll typically open both, for instance Steward/Militia.  Other than that, I try to open terminal/treasure, for instance I opened Quarry/Chancellor once.  That was interesting.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Khyad Halda

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 11:07:08 am »
0

Obviously, a lot of $5's are so good that you're happy to buy a Chapel alongside (Mountebank, Witch, Ghost Ship), but for 4/3 it's a different story.

There are a lot of $4s and even $3s you are happy to buy a Chapel alongside as well.  For example, Swindler/Chapel.
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2012, 11:13:14 am »
0

Count me in the camp that thinks the collision risk on double-terminal openings is overstated.  It's a factor to consider.  But it's not always the most significant one in a risk-reward analysis.

The OP mentions three double-terminal openings that are good just because spamming certain $3 cards is a powerful strategy.  There is another category of "safe" double-terminal openings too, which involves terminals that are more resilient against collisions.  For example, Courtyard lets you rescue your other terminal if you draw them in the same hand.  Trash-for-benefit cards would let you trash your other terminal if they collide (though most of these would prefer to chew up Estates first).

Another category of double-terminal openings are Golden Deck strategies.  Chapel/Bishop is the superstar there, and I suppose Steward/Bishop also works.

How about Tactician/Secret Chamber?  Not a 4/3, but not a Chapel opening either.

Seems like Young Witch wouldn't mind another terminal much (especially if it's the Bane), because Young Witch's cycling mitigates the loss of the card slot and speeds up when the other terminal gets back into your hand.

I've opened double Black Market on Fairgrounds boards, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the optimal strategy.  Sure was the optimally fun strategy, though!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 11:16:32 am by rinkworks »
Logged

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1559
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2012, 11:48:32 am »
0

I've opened double Black Market on Fairgrounds boards, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the optimal strategy.  Sure was the optimally fun strategy, though!

Double Black Market must be optimal when there's a cheap overpowered card in the BM deck (such as Amb, any good trasher if the board lacks one, Sea Hag if the board is slow enough) and when the board is decent for BM (which usually means there is a village). In particular, if Amb is in there on certain boards, it's almost crazy to not open double BM.
Logged

timchen

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 704
  • Shuffle iT Username: allfail
  • Respect: +235
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2012, 12:12:56 pm »
+2

Chancellor/Swindler over Swindler/Swindler?  I'm a pretty big Chancellor fan compared to most people but, Swindler is a curser.
Actually, with Chancellor on board it facilitates the double swindler opening, now that swindlers and silvers can be turned into chancellors...

And since you can expect to get many Chancellors, it seems like shooting yourself on the foot to open one...
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2012, 12:41:13 pm »
0

I've opened double Black Market on Fairgrounds boards, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the optimal strategy.  Sure was the optimally fun strategy, though!

Double Black Market must be optimal when there's a cheap overpowered card in the BM deck (such as Amb, any good trasher if the board lacks one, Sea Hag if the board is slow enough) and when the board is decent for BM (which usually means there is a village). In particular, if Amb is in there on certain boards, it's almost crazy to not open double BM.

This would be a live game with every single kingdom card (except Hinterlands -- don't have that one yet) in the Black Market deck.  It's humorously massive.  Anyway, it therefore does indeed have all those cards in it, but I wouldn't have been able to take the only Village or only Curser out of it.  So would that still make double Black Market a good opener sometimes?  I dunno.  Less of one, in any case.

Still, I am delighted to learn that there are actually situations where double Black Market is a good opening.  Hooray!
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +768
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2012, 12:52:16 pm »
+1

I open a lot of double terminals. The big question for me is how many terminals will my eventual deck support, not what do I lose in the collision.

The most obvious case is chapel/anything. And I do mean just about anything. Let's say I open chapel/cut purse; if they collide I chapel the 3 cards and don't cut purse this shuffle. Let's say I had opened silver instead, well now I have 2 coin to spend - on most boards that means buy nothing and I'm still right where I started. The next shuffle the odds of collision go up, but I may have had time to add a village or a sifter. On the flip side, if I don't collide I have a strong attack that gimps the other guy (he chapels one less copper, he is forced to buy something at 4 or 5 instead of 5 or 6). The other chapel case is where I have a non-terminal (e.g. village), chapel/village let's me increase chapel efficiency by 33% in the case of collision, but also adds no buying power (making it much harder to hit 5) and does not attack the opponent. Given that collision is the odds off bet, I'm almost always going to open terminal/chap if the terminal is strong (I can always chapel it later); I'd be more inclined to take chap/silver if there are strong 2's (e.g. haven, hamlet) or if I'm really worried about T6 collisions.

Now for cards that don't trash it gets a bit more complicated. Here rather than sacrificing a 2 coin buy, collision means sacrificing 2 coin off a likely high total already. In this case even though it is an odds off bet, the drop from 6 to 4 or 5 to 3 is big enough to give one pause, but remember it still is an odds off bet for any non-drawing terminal. So the question becomes how much do you value an atypical gold (or forge or whatever) verses a 4 coin card (like a village). If you are headed engine, you will want that village before the shuffle anyways and the gold is of more limited value than in a BM game.

The bigger concern is not the early collision, but what terminals do you want in the game. Strong terminal 5s make it a very bad idea to open double terminal much of the time. E.g. witch means that you have high odds with 2 other terminals of drawing one dead. Even in an engine, if your big terminals are something like embassy, you just need too many +actions to support lots of terminals. Now if I have some nice TfB going into the engine (e.g. apprentice, forge, upgrade), then I may still load up on early terminals (particularly attacks) and just figure they will be recycled into something better later.
 
Opening double terminal with much more than +1 draw is pretty bad. Now it is an odds on bet to collide and will only get worse. Further, villages don't decrease the odds nearly as much thanks for the need to draw villages live.

So to recap: trash & terminal is normally fine. You don't lose that much if the terminals collide (you'd trash anyways) and gain little by taking the silver instead. Terminal draw is very bad four opening double terminal. Know how many terminals your deck will eventually be able to support. Grabbing an early cutpurse/watchtower isn't so great if you intend to ghost ship heavily.
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3391
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2012, 12:57:08 pm »
0

I have seen Steward/Steward gaining popularity, for those situations where you demand a Chapel effect, lack of Chapel be damned.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

O

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 836
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2012, 02:39:48 pm »
0

Remake-X
Steward-Steward
Swindler-X (most often swindler)
Develop-X (collision is good)
Baron-X
Courtyard is the best example of it, but it cheats the system with its topdecking..
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2012, 05:45:09 pm »
0

Steward Steward is good.  Someone once pointed out on f.ds that trashers generally collide ok, because you weren't going to buy anything that turn anyway, and that's often more or less true.

I'm not sure I can buy BM/BM.  I feel like BM/Silver is better because gamebreaking assymetry cards are often at the 5$+ mark, like Witch and Mountebank.  Drawing Silver together with a Black Market becomes a kind of synergy that way.  Though I guess when we use isotropic's black market which is unfortunately, not the real black market, you can see that Ambassador is in the BM and power five's aren't so BM/BM is better. 
Logged

zahlman

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 724
  • Respect: +216
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2012, 08:30:26 pm »
0

Another category of double-terminal openings are Golden Deck strategies.  Chapel/Bishop is the superstar there

Sigh... so apparently this is well-known. At least I can claim I thought of it myself :/
Logged

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1177
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2012, 08:39:15 pm »
0

I opened Double Oracle going for BM-Oracle today.
Idea was, there is less chance of collision cause I get the spy-like effect.
Resulted drawing the both together turn 3.
Wasn't too happy about it.  ;D
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9415
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2012, 11:14:06 pm »
0

Another category of double-terminal openings are Golden Deck strategies.  Chapel/Bishop is the superstar there

Sigh... so apparently this is well-known. At least I can claim I thought of it myself :/

Heh, yes.  There are multiple threads about it, including the discussion of whether Bishop/Chapel beats Silver/Chapel into Bishop (the consensus was Bishop/Chapel by a lot).
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2012, 11:17:19 pm »
0

I opened Double Oracle going for BM-Oracle today.
Idea was, there is less chance of collision cause I get the spy-like effect.
Resulted drawing the both together turn 3.
Wasn't too happy about it.  ;D
But in terminal draw BM, you really want that Silver asap. +2 cards is pretty terrible with just Coppers, Estates, and terminals. And I doubt the (low) chance of getting off the attack on both turns is really worth that much...
Logged

Eevee

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eevee
  • A wild Eevee appears!
  • Respect: +867
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2012, 12:50:33 am »
0

Trader-x. Again, the collusion is fine.
Logged

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1177
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2012, 06:26:51 am »
0

I opened Double Oracle going for BM-Oracle today.
Idea was, there is less chance of collision cause I get the spy-like effect.
Resulted drawing the both together turn 3.
Wasn't too happy about it.  ;D
But in terminal draw BM, you really want that Silver asap. +2 cards is pretty terrible with just Coppers, Estates, and terminals. And I doubt the (low) chance of getting off the attack on both turns is really worth that much...

You are right. I didn't say my play was overly smart, I just seemed like a cool thing to do.  ;D
Logged

Ozle

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3625
  • Sorry, this text is personal.
  • Respect: +3360
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2012, 06:30:26 am »
0

I just can't help myself buying Silver\Action
No matter how many times I play I always feel like I will need the money!

(obvious scenarios aside of course)
Logged
Try the Ozle Google Map Challenge!
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7466.0

Sullying players Enjoyment of Innovation since 2013 Apparently!

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +749
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2012, 06:36:52 am »
+1

Young Witch/Bane?
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Varsinor

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 204
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2012, 07:48:36 am »
0

Chancellor/Swindler over Swindler/Swindler?  I'm a pretty big Chancellor fan compared to most people but, Swindler is a curser.
Actually, with Chancellor on board it facilitates the double swindler opening, now that swindlers and silvers can be turned into chancellors...

And since you can expect to get many Chancellors, it seems like shooting yourself on the foot to open one...

Exactly my thoughts when I read Young Nick's post in which he sort of advocated to open Swindler / Chancellor. I am quite sure that opening is vastly inferior to both Swindler / Swindler and Swindler / Silver.

I also agree the presence of the lousy Chancellor makes Swindlers much more attractive. One Chancellor in the beginning may be good on certain boards (very few in my opinion), but the many Chancellors your opponent's Swindlers will dish out are almost always terrible (except when Stash is present, maybe).
So with Chancellor present, Swindler / Swindler should be better than Swindler / Silver on most boards I think. Exceptions would be when there are Witch and/or Mountebank and no villages, so that on the one hand it is especially important to get to $5 on turn 3 or 4 and on the other hand together with the curser you'd already have three terminals with no extra actions (even a card draw terminal in case of Witch which makes collision even more likely).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 07:50:45 am by Varsinor »
Logged

Death to Sea Hags

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2012, 09:00:13 am »
0

FWIW, probabilities, from the Basic Opening Probabilities* article  ( http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/03/09/basic-opening-probabilities/  )

Terminal collision t3-4:  30.3%
Terminal collision t5:     1.6%

Drawing only $2 t3,4:      5.3%

The last line assumes a $2 terminal and therefore requires a triple-estate hand (w/ double copper) because either of your terminals would push the hand to $3.  Such a hand guarantees that your other hand is $5 or $6 - but not $7, which is impossible with this opening.
Logged

Jedit

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 43
  • Respect: +21
    • View Profile
Re: Double Terminal Opening on 4/3
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2012, 05:27:44 pm »
0

Seven of the top 20 ranked Masquerade/X openings on Council Room have terminals for X, the weakest of which is double-Masq at +3.6.  Masq/Silver is ranked higher than any of them, though.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.098 seconds with 21 queries.