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Author Topic: Card Idea: Scavenger  (Read 7431 times)

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Archetype

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Card Idea: Scavenger
« on: June 18, 2012, 01:17:51 pm »
+4

I've been testing this card, and it seems pretty balanced.

Scavenger
Cost: 3

+1 Action
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Put 1 into your hand and discard the rest.


It's like Warehouse with the advantage being only having to discard 2 cards instead of 3, and it is very easy to chain them. The drawback is if the top cards are all good, you can only pick one of them.

If it's a curse game, this card can really excel, otherwise, it's pretty mediocre.

Is it fine at 3? 
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 01:26:28 pm »
0

I think power-wise it's fine at $3, and maybe even at $2. There's just something strange about cards that look at the top X cards of your deck, discard Y of them, and put the rest into your hand. I can't really put my finger on what it is. I've suggested similar cards myself, so I've thought about and tested this sort of card a bit as well. Maybe it's that you're cycling a lot for relatively little draw. Maybe it's that you're often forced to discard good cards. I don't know why, but every card I've designed that had this mechanic I've later redesigned to get rid of it. I can't help but wonder if there's a reason no official card does this.
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Archetype

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 01:31:54 pm »
0

I think power-wise it's fine at $3, and maybe even at $2. There's just something strange about cards that look at the top X cards of your deck, discard Y of them, and put the rest into your hand. I can't really put my finger on what it is. I've suggested similar cards myself, so I've thought about and tested this sort of card a bit as well. Maybe it's that you're cycling a lot for relatively little draw. Maybe it's that you're often forced to discard good cards. I don't know why, but every card I've designed that had this mechanic I've later redesigned to get rid of it. I can't help but wonder if there's a reason no official card does this.

I've considered putting it at costing 2, but like you said, at first it seems weak, but later in the game it seems too strong at 2, and should cost 3.

Maybe it doesn't exist because it's too random? One person hitting 2 Estates and a Gold, and another 3 Golds.
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Davio

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 01:35:26 pm »
0

Still I think Warehouse is almost strictly better because your pool of cards to keep and discard is bigger.
If you start with 1 Warehouse you basically get the best 4 out of a total of 7 cards (not counting the Warehouse) and discard the worst 3 out of 7 cards.

With this card you get to keep the best 1 out of 3 and have to discard the worst 2 out of 3.
I doubt whether it makes up for the extra spot in your hand.

Cost wise it seems to be somewhere in between Pearl Diver and Warehouse.
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rinkworks

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 01:42:27 pm »
+3

I've played many games with a custom card that's exactly like this except that it's +2 Actions instead of +1 Action.  So it's a Village card with cycling and a targeted draw.  Naively, I figured this would be about a $4 card, but as it turns out it's a solid $5.  The cycling power is just amazing, especially in an engine when plowing through Coppers and green cards to find your engine pieces is important.   By the way, the odds that all three cards are the superstars of your deck is more of an issue in theory than it is in practice.

Your non-Village version is roughly like a Cartographer Lite -- better quality draw, lower quality sifting.  Integrating it into an engine deck would be similarly great, the catch being that if your engine requires Villages, you have to use a separate buy to get one, whereas my card packs both features into the same card.

I'm guessing $3 is about right.  It's clearly superior to Pearl Diver, another deck-reordering cantrip, and would look pretty overpowered on its price tier.  More significantly, it makes a very interesting competitor with Silver, in the same way Warehouse is -- do you spent $3 on your economy, or on deck lubrication?  Important to get that balance right.

Come to think of it, it makes an interesting alternative to Warehouse and not strictly better or worse.   Warehouse provides much more flexible sifting but consumes a card slot.

Edit: Agree and disagree with Davio on the Warehouse comparison.  If you want a sifter at all, you probably want Warehouse.  If you've got an extra buy, this card won't hurt.  And if you want multiple sifters, you probably want the rest to be this card.  The card slot issue is huge.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 01:46:35 pm by rinkworks »
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Archetype

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 01:50:20 pm »
0

@Davio: I can think of a few times when I would pick this over Warehouse, because their cycling powers do differ. And I do think it makes up for the spot in your hand because with Scavenger, you can chain them a lot easier than you can with Warehouse.

@rinkworks: The cycling power of this card is why I changed it from 2 to 3. You blow through your deck very quickly, and if you have a Village, you can pick up some Engine pieces. It also functions as a filter against cards like Rabble and such.

Thank you all for your input!


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goober

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 03:06:05 pm »
0

I agree that $3 is the best price point. The real difference between this card and warehouse is that you can chain these together like crazy with essentially no downside as you dig for your power cards. Having several of these would greatly improve your ability to play power cards every turn, and would make two card combos much easier to line up. With no loss of cards, the only major deterrent to loading up on them is opportunity cost, so pricing it at $2 would make it a bit too powerful in the presence of decent +buy I think. Basically too much upside and too spammable for $2.
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Davio

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 03:39:35 pm »
0

Well, coming back on my previous post I must admit there's a real power to knowing what you will draw before you draw it.

Consider a Spy that does the sneak peak first and draw after. That would be a lot better than the current one.
Or Cartographer, which is a $5 card.

So in hindsight I think $3 is fine.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 04:16:24 pm »
0

Consider a Spy that does the sneak peak first and draw after.

You mean like Oracle?  Except that it's a terminal.
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popsofctown

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 04:52:44 pm »
0

Warehouse stacks poorly, this stacks strongly
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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 07:15:15 pm »
0

I agree that $3 is the best price point. The real difference between this card and warehouse is that you can chain these together like crazy with essentially no downside as you dig for your power cards. Having several of these would greatly improve your ability to play power cards every turn, and would make two card combos much easier to line up. With no loss of cards, the only major deterrent to loading up on them is opportunity cost, so pricing it at $2 would make it a bit too powerful in the presence of decent +buy I think. Basically too much upside and too spammable for $2.

I feel the same way, with this at $2 and a good engine, you could plow through your deck a couple of times.

Warehouse stacks poorly, this stacks strongly

I agree. Scavenger gives up the cycling that Warehouse has for the ability to be spammed.
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pokeman7452

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 09:21:40 pm »
0

I love this card! It's yet another card that breaks Tunnel though.
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Thanar

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 12:45:51 am »
+1

A few possible images:

The Scavenger by E. F. Lambert (1816)
http://media.artfinder.com/works/r/bal/9/0/4/373409_full_539x719.jpg


Le Chiffonier by Jean-François Raffaëlli (1879)
Hi-res version: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Raffaelli_Jean_Francois_Le_Chiffonier.jpg


The London Scavenger by Richard Beard (1861)
Hi-res version: http://www.victorianlondon.org/mayhew/mayhew-35.gif

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pokeman7452

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 12:31:02 pm »
+1

A few possible images:

The Scavenger by E. F. Lambert (1816)
http://media.artfinder.com/works/r/bal/9/0/4/373409_full_539x719.jpg

Le Chiffonier by Jean-François Raffaëlli (1879)
Hi-res version: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Raffaelli_Jean_Francois_Le_Chiffonier.jpg

The London Scavenger by Richard Beard (1861)
Hi-res version: http://www.victorianlondon.org/mayhew/mayhew-35.gif
We should be a team Thanar ;D. Although, I don't think these fit quite as well. Not my call though, up to Archetype.


I'm trying to fix up the wording. "Look at" or "Reveal" the top three cards?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:35:44 pm by pokeman7452 »
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Schneau

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2012, 12:36:58 pm »
0

I love this card! It's yet another card that breaks Tunnel though.

Actually, not as bad as Warehouse, or even Inn, since you can't discard cards from your hand.
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rinkworks

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2012, 01:38:23 pm »
0

And not even Warehouse and Inn "break" Tunnel, right?  It's just a combo.  If it was actually broken, Donald wouldn't have let something as obvious as that through.

Anyway, re: the wording, just use "look at."  "Reveal" is only used when there's an accountability issue at stake, like when drawing cards with Farming Village or Loan.  This is more similar to Lookout, where opponents can verify the correctness of the card manipulation without actually seeing what the cards are.
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Archetype

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 02:49:52 pm »
0

And not even Warehouse and Inn "break" Tunnel, right?  It's just a combo.  If it was actually broken, Donald wouldn't have let something as obvious as that through.

Anyway, re: the wording, just use "look at."  "Reveal" is only used when there's an accountability issue at stake, like when drawing cards with Farming Village or Loan.  This is more similar to Lookout, where opponents can verify the correctness of the card manipulation without actually seeing what the cards are.

Yeah, look at is fine because, like rinkworks said, there's no reason why they should know which card you put into your hand, as long it's just one.

A few possible images:

The Scavenger by E. F. Lambert (1816)
http://media.artfinder.com/works/r/bal/9/0/4/373409_full_539x719.jpg

Le Chiffonier by Jean-François Raffaëlli (1879)
Hi-res version: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Raffaelli_Jean_Francois_Le_Chiffonier.jpg

The London Scavenger by Richard Beard (1861)
Hi-res version: http://www.victorianlondon.org/mayhew/mayhew-35.gif
We should be a team Thanar ;D. Although, I don't think these fit quite as well. Not my call though, up to Archetype.


I'm trying to fix up the wording. "Look at" or "Reveal" the top three cards?
This is great Thanar and pokeman7452! The images are fine, I couldn't find any better myself  ;D
I'm not too savvy with card making, so thank you so much for making one pokeman! The wording is fine, and it looks great!

Thank you all again!


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Thanar

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2012, 09:54:35 pm »
0

Just noticed a minor typo in the attribution line:  Illusration should be Illustration.
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pokeman7452

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2012, 11:15:08 pm »
0

Just noticed a minor typo in the attribution line:  Illusration should be Illustration.
Holy... How the heck did that happen? It was right in my royal navy card, but all the rest had this. I hope no one printed them like this :'(
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Davio

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Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 10:16:52 am »
0

"Look at" as wording is fine. There already a few cards that use this mechanic, so people are used to it.

Otherwise, if the mechanic were new, people may have put the drawn cards with the rest of their hand and this makes it hard to verify whether the discarded cards come from the top 3 of his deck or from his hand.

I think anytime a player can "look at" cards he must put his hand down to not mix them up.
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