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Author Topic: VP card worth more than Colony?  (Read 3994 times)

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Wolphmaniac

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VP card worth more than Colony?
« on: June 13, 2012, 09:26:05 pm »
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My friend and I were discussing which alternate VP cards could possibly be worth the same or more than Colony.  I argued that it could only be Vineyard and Gardens.  I recently played a University/Haggler/Vineyard game where I got Vineyard up to 11 points, so we know that one is doable. (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120603-185125-257e00ec.html)  I have finished a game with 114 cards but Gardens was not involved so I can't prove that.  My friend tried to make a case for Fairgrounds but I countered that there is no way anyone could gain 25 different cards against an opponent who had any clue.  (Not to mention doing all that and still having time to gain some Fairgrounds to capitalize on it.)

Does anyone have any game logs or theories on how any alternate VP card could be worth 10 or more?

Thanks.
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werothegreat

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2012, 09:38:08 pm »
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A 2 player game with only Victory Kingdom cards.  With Silk Road, and each player taking half the cards, each Silk Road will net 13 points.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2012, 09:51:21 pm »
+2

Fairgrounds with Black Market could reasonably be over 11 points; it's probably never the best strategy on a board but it's not impossible either.  Getting 25 unique cards with Black Market, KC/TR, and extra buys would not be that hard.
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PSGarak

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 10:34:51 pm »
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Dukes can be worth 12 in a 3-player game. Queue the forehead-slapping =P.
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Tables

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2012, 10:40:24 pm »
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I think a 3-4 player game with reasonably damaging attacks (but not card trashing e.g. Saboteur), Black Market and Fairgrounds could go on long enough for Faigrounds to be worth 12 or more points, assuming you play with real cards and so have an unlimited size BM deck. It can happen in just 2 players, but this is a situation it's a real, respectable possibility rather being technically able to happen but won't.
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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2012, 10:46:55 pm »
+1

Every single variable VP card CAN be bigger than colonies (Dukes can't in 2-player). None of them are very likely to in a real game, though vineyards will now and then. Usually, though, those are such clear vineyards boards that 3 piles run before they can get that big.

sparky5856

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2012, 10:58:17 pm »
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As far as Fairgrounds goes, if there's 11 Kingdom Cards (one for a Young Witch bane), 25 cards in the Black Market, 5 basic Treasures (including Potion and Platinum), 4 basic VP cards, the curses, and the five prizes from Tournament, the theoretical limit for Fairgrounds is 20 VP each. (Am I missing anything?) Dark Ages might push that even higher.

Good luck getting that much though. : P

There was also a thread in the Game Reports where 18-VP Vineyards were amassed.  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2821.0
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rinkworks

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2012, 11:03:08 pm »
+1

As far as Fairgrounds goes, if there's 11 Kingdom Cards (one for a Young Witch bane), 25 cards in the Black Market, 5 basic Treasures (including Potion and Platinum), 4 basic VP cards, the curses, and the five prizes from Tournament, the theoretical limit for Fairgrounds is 20 VP each.

That's the theoretical Isotropic limit, but as far as a live game goes, it's much higher, as you can have every other kingdom card in the Black Market, not just 25.  I'm not really sure why Isotropic limits it like that, honestly.
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Piemaster

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2012, 12:33:41 am »
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As far as Fairgrounds goes, if there's 11 Kingdom Cards (one for a Young Witch bane), 25 cards in the Black Market, 5 basic Treasures (including Potion and Platinum), 4 basic VP cards, the curses, and the five prizes from Tournament, the theoretical limit for Fairgrounds is 20 VP each.

That's the theoretical Isotropic limit, but as far as a live game goes, it's much higher, as you can have every other kingdom card in the Black Market, not just 25.  I'm not really sure why Isotropic limits it like that, honestly.

Me neither.  It actually changes the strategy of the card because Black Market can become more or less valuable according to the overall card quality in the BM deck, rather than the injection of pure randomness it is when I'm playing live.
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qmech

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2012, 04:33:18 am »
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Silk Roads can definitely be worth more than Colonies.  This game fails the realism test though.
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cherdano

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2012, 04:38:09 am »
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I have had a game where my opponent got his fairgrounds to 10VP each. He got an engine going that allowed him to play Black market once or twice per turn.
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jomini

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2012, 11:44:14 am »
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BM/fairgrounds/cost reduction can make for awfully big fairgrounds, picking up non-terminals for free can basically make playing BM read "gain a card". E.g. BM/quarry means that any cantrip 2 is free (e.g. pawn, haven, hamlet) and a lot of the 3s have minimal cost. If you throw in a bridge (say one bought from the BM) or a princess, you can start expecting there to almost always be a very cheap card to snag from your BM. Get a KC or a TR in play and you can reasonably start adding 3-4 unique cards per turn. If you can ever break 5 cards/turn (between buying them from the BM deck and buying them from the kingdom) it actually becomes far more lucrative to buy more diversity than more fairgrounds (up until each fairground is worth 2x the number of fairgrounds you have).

Now this isn't likely, you need some board that just screams massive BM play and some way to slow the game down enough to prevent a colony engine from destroying you. Such boards are going to be rare, but I could conceivably see it happening. Something like library/quarry/BM/village/TR/fairgrounds might be enough to encourage folks to split the fairgrounds & never 3 pile because each player is gaining 8 points a turn in fairgrounds value.
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Morgrim7

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Re: VP card worth more than Colony?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2012, 01:42:38 pm »
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A long time ago (before I knew all the proper rules to Dominion[we had some crazy house rules  ::)]) every game we played with Gardens resulted in a $4 13VP card. ish.
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