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Author Topic: Governor  (Read 42267 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Governor
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 11:03:27 am »
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Most overpowered cards can't just be fixed by bumping the cost, but in this case I think Governor should cost $6. That way you've got meaningful choices to make when you have $5 and even if you usually take Governor over Gold at $6, at least you sometimes have to think about it.

I think Governor might actually get marginally MORE powerful at $6, since then it becomes possible to trash a governor to gain a province.

Ooh, good call.
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mnavratil

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Re: Governor
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2012, 11:30:06 am »
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I started a simulation contest a while ago to determine the best way to play Governor in absence of other actions. I received only one entry (from WW) which proved only a tiny improvement and the Governor was still getting crushed by a lot of other mediocre single card strategies like Merchant Ship making me doubt the Governor is really a power card. It probably is, but not on its own (eg Governor/Chapel is sick, but Governor/nothing seems weak).
The simulation challenge is still open and I invite anyone who thinks he can play Governor well to come up with a good set of play rules that I can implement.

I wanted to enter the contest, but lack the patience and computational skill.

Basically: if I have fewer than six governors, I want to gain governors unless there are fewer than six provinces. We have a function called "expected number of governors gained this turn," which I will abbreviate as E. It eats Dominion hands and returns the number of governors. To compute E, since there's no + buy and I can't get anything but silver and governors, I say: does the hand have five money, does the hand have a governor + silver pair, does the hand have seven money and a governor + silver pair, etc.

If I have fewer than six governors and at least six provinces remain, when I see a hand, I compute the probability that E(my hand - governor + three cards from the remainder of my deck) > E(my hand). If this probability is greater than 3/4, I use a governor to draw three cards. If not, I use a governor to gain a gold.

For example: with governor governor silver copper copper, I will draw three cards if I suspect I will draw 3 money in them or a governor and a silver in them with high probability, and I will gain a gold and remodel silver to governor otherwise.

After six governors to achieve, the aim is to draw the whole deck and remodel gold to province; I compute a function P for governor draws, replacing the role of silver-remodel-to-governor with gold-remodel-to-province and repeat the same process.

The tricky business is computing P and E. The problem is: if I expect the governor to draw me more governors, how do I compute these functions? I need to do something recursive but am not a CS expert.

I think I have a similar way of actually playing governor. The only difference is I view my current hand in points only. If I have <8 money in hand and a governor I try to figure my odds of drawing enough for a province. If I feel the odds are good I will take the draw, otherwise the gold. Similarly, if I already have $8, or a gold and governor, I try to figure my odds of drawing a combination that would result in an extra province, or at least an extra duchy.

The whole thing gets even trickier when you try to account for your opponents deck. Have they seen most of their governors/golds already this shuffle? How likely is it that the +1 card for them gains them an extra province? That sort of thing.

I find that this all results in me taking the +cards option much more than other people (right or wrong).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Governor
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2012, 01:27:07 pm »
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Governor, governor, governor. One of the least-understood cards, I think. Certainly by me, but also I think in general.
The consensus is very much as Robz888 points out in the article, but... I am not at ALL convinced that this is even very close to the right way to play. Indeed, I think as just a big money enabler, it's not that great at all. You use it largely for gold/silver, and well, those silvers you give them are pretty useful. Especially if there's some other 5-cost that's nice for them. Or a 4-cost even, as a defensive trash for points. Those are huge by the way. They make all kinds of alternate-victory cards very relevant. Particularly, you look at silk road, gardens, island - ways to trash your zillion extra silvers defensively.
But, look at how governor for big money compares against more conventional BM strategies. Well, you're giving them silvers, which is actually a big deal - it lets them get more of their terminals, which they may indeed need to do in order to compete with you, but if they're paying attention, they will do. They use your silvers to quite an advantage, particularly since Gov player is using lots of time buying governors, which only help you to get things that help you to get provinces for most of the game. The other player is buying cards which directly get them to provinces. Ad indeed, I am not nearly so sure that you should always prefer governor to gold, for these decks anyway. Perhaps the first one or two, but.... Really, for governor player to win these games, they really need multi-province turns. And usually, because to get this, you need to use lots of card-draw, they'll be able to nail a province for sure. Which means you need multiple multi-province turns and/or 3+province turns. Also, because these games tend to be shorter, you should green sooner. In fact, I find the games are often so short, that it's not so worth it. For big money, it's just a mediocre card, maybe even at best. But it does lead to shorter games, so one or two turns of shuffle luck can mean quite a bit more. I guess the big thing is, look at how many governor plays you have to do to get enough golds, then you need to be able to draw enough to get golds AND governors in your hand, AND have enough money to buy another province at the end...
However, there's more here. It's potentially quite good in engines. You can use the trash option to get some decent components at the right price points. Indeed, it's sort of like develop in that it's in some ways quite dependent on what's available at different price points. I guess swindler here also has some similarity. But more, the cards option is potentially very strong. There are a number of cases where you can use it with RELATIVE impunity. I mean, the first one is the discard attack as is stated, though you do want to be a little wary here (also, note that moat is a REALLY good defense to this - you're having me draw so many cards before attacking me, I have a good chance of drawing my moat. And even if I don't play it... it's defending like 5 of my cards now, instead of 2; well worth it), as a best 3 cards out of 8 or something is a lot better than 3 out of 5. But another situation is where you're playing against library/watchtower/jack - the cards don't help them much. More commonly, you're playing against someone who's drawing their whole deck anyway - no big deal then, if you make them do it a little faster. Still more commonly, they have no source of extra buy/gain. Sure, now you're guaranteeing them a province on their next turn. But if you can mega-turn, well then who cares? So what this option loves, and the card itself loves to some extent, are ways to mega0turn. Plus buys and gains that aren't limited to by cost (so with highway also works, but I'm largely thinking of HoP here), cards that love handsize (forge is nice, bank if you've got buys) - some way of making an engine, you're good. Also, in such games, you often have mirrors, right. And in this case, the gain option is more powerful - you can use the golds, to remodel if nothing else, much better than they can use the silvers. What will they do with the silver? I guess remodel it into governors. So, it's weird, governor sorta works better in non-mirrors, sort of how tribute works best in mirrors.
But I guess the thing I'd say most is that, while you're right to be somewhat wary of using cards too much, as that's a pretty nice benefit to your opponent, I think people may have learned that lesson too well, though maybe the top top players less so.

verikt

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Re: Governor
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2012, 03:57:59 pm »
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I don't know if you're 100% right about never buying lab over governor. I just had a game where I bought a lab after my third governor because I wanted the draw without giving it to my opponent. I dunno if it was the right move, and I don't remember if I won or lost either.
 I've also used gov to remodel plats in colony games. Depending on how easy it is to get plat, mine, mint, develop-peddler come to mind it can come in handy.
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ednever

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Re: Governor
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2012, 04:01:52 pm »
+1

Funny on the governor backlash that seems to be trickling in. I think the backlash is wrong.

Building a good governor simulator is really hard. But if you can keep track of your and your opponent's deck, I think Govenor single card beats just about everything else (certainly merchant ship).

I buy Govenors over gold just about every time - you should have a ton of gold from the gs anyway, and the value of extra Govenors on your last mega turn is worth the purchase on its own. I don't think I've ever had a find turn where I wished a Govenor was a gold (of I did I would just +3 cards and almost guarantee myself another gold plus two more cards)

For times not to buy Govenors:
The only one I can think of might be an igg rush. Especially if there was alt vp like gardens (or border village... Bv is great for governor, but I suspect the ability to respond to Govenor remodels with igg->bv->duchy (or igg) would accelerate the igg strategy more than the governors)

Other cursors mess up g pretty badly too. Enough that you likely want to contest the curse war, but likely not so much that it changed moving into Govenors as phase two.

Ed
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blueblimp

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Re: Governor
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2012, 04:12:02 pm »
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Building a good governor simulator is really hard. But if you can keep track of your and your opponent's deck, I think Govenor single card beats just about everything else (certainly merchant ship).

The simulator of course can keep track of the decks perfectly, though. It's probably hard to write the rules, but I imagine if someone played a few sample games of Governor vs whatever (say Merchant Ship), then posted the logs with comments, it shouldn't be too bad to write something reasonable.

It's believable to me that there could be some Governor groupthink going on in games: your opponent gets it, so you feel pressured and get it too... but maybe you would have been better off just ignoring it.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Governor
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2012, 04:13:45 pm »
+1

Who's willing to back up their words with some obviously-won't-count-toward-the-scoreboard-because-we're-specifying-cards-in-the-kingdom isotropic games? I am.

greatexpectations

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Re: Governor
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2012, 04:17:53 pm »
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simulation is difficult, so as WW suggested why not play it out.

i think that governor's strength needs to be at least partially credited to the fact that both players always seem to race for them. this might be part of the problem with poorer than expected simulations. with your opponent feeding you silver, trashing your copper, and increasing your hand size you can easily gain more gold and governors and ramp up your deck.  without that assistance or some fast trashing, well, things are going to be a bit slower.

fwiw, according to the popular buys page, governor is the fastest card out there by nearly 2! full turns. it is a clear outlier, and i suspect that is largely because of the great benefits to your opponent. 
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Jfrisch

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Re: Governor
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2012, 05:00:17 pm »
+3

I'm convinced that the lab option is underplayed. The benefit to your opponent is no doubt strong. (a free lab is always nice). But you are getting twice that benefit. Essentially everybody gets a lab, then you get a second lab. Since lab is a 5$ card, as long as you have a way to take advantage of big turns this should be fine.
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theory

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Re: Governor
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2012, 05:13:44 pm »
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I'm convinced that the lab option is underplayed. The benefit to your opponent is no doubt strong. (a free lab is always nice). But you are getting twice that benefit. Essentially everybody gets a lab, then you get a second lab. Since lab is a 5$ card, as long as you have a way to take advantage of big turns this should be fine.
But assume you both have a single Governor.  You used your Governor on drawing 3 cards, so you get to play with 7 cards.  On the other hand, he gets to use his Governor on something else, so even though he's only playing with 5 cards + the Governor, he has that Governor and can remodel the Gold.
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blueblimp

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Re: Governor
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2012, 05:14:35 pm »
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I'm convinced that the lab option is underplayed. The benefit to your opponent is no doubt strong. (a free lab is always nice). But you are getting twice that benefit. Essentially everybody gets a lab, then you get a second lab. Since lab is a 5$ card, as long as you have a way to take advantage of big turns this should be fine.

Getting a lab without needing to draw a lab is better than lab, though. That's why Alchemist costs 3P instead of 5: you don't need to worry as much about drawing it. The article's comparison to Wharf is also good.
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blueblimp

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Re: Governor
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2012, 05:15:11 pm »
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Who's willing to back up their words with some obviously-won't-count-toward-the-scoreboard-because-we're-specifying-cards-in-the-kingdom isotropic games? I am.

I'm bad with Governor lately, but I'd like to see someone else give this a shot.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Governor
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2012, 06:29:29 pm »
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Just played a handful of games with O. It's a pretty limited sample, but it was roughly on par with BM/Smithy, a bit of an edge over BM/Merchant ship. I think smithy was actually a little better, but I'm not about to play 100 games for no reason on it. In either case, I think mixing in some governors to your smithy deck, at least if you hit $5 at the right/wrong moment, is important.
Furthermore, you should draw cards as governor player fairly often here (as O in fact did).

Jfrisch

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Re: Governor
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2012, 06:41:28 pm »
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@theory
I'm a bit confused about your point. Clearly there is an opportunity cost in choosing one option over another. Clearly you want to choose the option that will create the greatest disparity in benefit to you vs benefit to your opponent. I'm responding to the particular worry about card draw. people seem to feel that it is somehow a very dangerous option to take when really, unless you are stupid about it (i.e. drawing extra cards when you have a significantly weaker deck than your opponent/when you already have achieved what you want this turn) it's really not that bad. Now early game I very frequently will prefer the gold, and at the end of a mega-turn the trashing ability can come in handy. But if your hand would do much better with a few more cards, go for cards. People seem to have this irrational fear that because they are giving there opponent a better hand as well, (lab is strong!) they should really avoid this option.
A gold vs a silver isn't that great a trade-off for a lot of the game. And, unless you are going for VP, there isn't a ton of marginal benefit a lot of the time over remodeling to exactly 2 vs exactly 1. Card is very often the best option but, because they are helping there a opponent more then with the other options. People are often afraid to use it.

(for some reason, this fear isn't as present with councilroom... which is really weird to be considering with councilroom you are trading a dead draw card for a live draw for your opponents...)
@Blueblimp
I don't think you're accurate. Alchemist is better than lab because you can play it more frequently because of the potion trick.  With governor, any increase in the frequency with which it's played directly corresponds to you getting to play it more.
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O

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Re: Governor
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2012, 06:49:14 pm »
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Just played a handful of games with O. It's a pretty limited sample, but it was roughly on par with BM/Smithy, a bit of an edge over BM/Merchant ship. I think smithy was actually a little better, but I'm not about to play 100 games for no reason on it. In either case, I think mixing in some governors to your smithy deck, at least if you hit $5 at the right/wrong moment, is important.
Furthermore, you should draw cards as governor player fairly often here (as O in fact did).

I noticed during these that governor has a pretty high chance of winning if it hits 5/5 on turns 3/4, and probably a marginally losing record when it doesn't. I felt like I hit 5/5 25% of the time, but am too lazy to calculate the probabilities to see if this is below or above average.
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blueblimp

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Re: Governor
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2012, 07:38:25 pm »
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@Blueblimp
I don't think you're accurate. Alchemist is better than lab because you can play it more frequently because of the potion trick.  With governor, any increase in the frequency with which it's played directly corresponds to you getting to play it more.

Here's why I think the strength of Alchemist is in its reliability and not often you play it.

In my experience, it's only worth going for Alchemist if you can expect to draw almost your entire deck. Otherwise, you have a decent chance of missing the Potion, unless you get two (or more!) Potions, but then you're spending a turn to gum up your deck with a semi-dead card.

If you're drawing your whole deck, then it's obvious how often you play Alchemist/Lab: once per turn. You can't play either more that that, so they seem to have similar effects, yet Alchemist is better for drawing your deck. Why?

I claim it's because the greater reliability of Alchemist allows it to draw more. Imagine you are trying to draw your deck with 5 Labs. Assuming no other cards that draw more than 1, the greatest number of non-drawing cards you can have is 10. But if you try to use 5 Labs to draw 10 cards like this, it's not going to work very often, because if one of your Labs is among the bottom two cards of your deck after you shuffle, then you will fail to draw your deck.

On the other hand, Alchemists have no problem drawing the theoretical maximum number of cards. If you have 5 Alchemists, you can support 10 non-drawing cards guaranteed, since you are certain to hit your Potion every time and be able to top-deck the Alchemists. When building an engine, it's a huge benefit to have this kind of certainty.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Governor
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2012, 07:49:34 pm »
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You guys realize that alchemist is worse than lab, right?

blueblimp

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Re: Governor
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2012, 08:04:55 pm »
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You guys realize that alchemist is worse than lab, right?

It's better once you have them (obviously, since it's a Lab you can sometimes top-deck), even though the cost is annoying.

Actually even considering the cost, I think I'd prefer Alchemists for a nicely-trimmed engine, just because the top-decking is so useful. If I can't trim my deck, then sure Lab is better.
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O

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Re: Governor
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2012, 08:08:43 pm »
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I wonder how much better Alchemist would be over Lab if it was priced at 5$ (but maintained the potion-to-topdeck)
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ehunt

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Re: Governor
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2012, 08:12:02 pm »
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You guys realize that alchemist is worse than lab, right?

Man, alchemist is the whipping boy of these forums recently. Perhaps he needs his own article. (Not by me. My strategy is not to buy him.)
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blueblimp

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Re: Governor
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2012, 08:45:46 pm »
0

I wonder how much better Alchemist would be over Lab if it was priced at 5$ (but maintained the potion-to-topdeck)

Wouldn't this make Alchemist worse, since the Potion would be useless for buying Alchemists?
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Morgrim7

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Re: Governor
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2012, 09:01:12 pm »
0

I wonder how much better Alchemist would be over Lab if it was priced at 5$ (but maintained the potion-to-topdeck)

Wouldn't this make Alchemist worse, since the Potion would be useless for buying Alchemists?
No, because it is the same as lab already. And you are not obliged to buy a Potion.
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olneyce

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Re: Governor
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2012, 09:35:01 pm »
0

You guys realize that alchemist is worse than lab, right?

Man, alchemist is the whipping boy of these forums recently. Perhaps he needs his own article. (Not by me. My strategy is not to buy him.)
Your strategy is to not buy anything because you have quit Dominion forever.
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blueblimp

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Re: Governor
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2012, 10:17:12 pm »
0

I wonder how much better Alchemist would be over Lab if it was priced at 5$ (but maintained the potion-to-topdeck)

Wouldn't this make Alchemist worse, since the Potion would be useless for buying Alchemists?
No, because it is the same as lab already. And you are not obliged to buy a Potion.

Sorry, I meant that Alchemist at $5 is probably worse than Alchemist at $3P, because the Potion doesn't help you buy them.
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O

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Re: Governor
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2012, 10:21:02 pm »
0

I wonder how much better Alchemist would be over Lab if it was priced at 5$ (but maintained the potion-to-topdeck)

Wouldn't this make Alchemist worse, since the Potion would be useless for buying Alchemists?
No, because it is the same as lab already. And you are not obliged to buy a Potion.

Sorry, I meant that Alchemist at $5 is probably worse than Alchemist at $3P, because the Potion doesn't help you buy them.
....I don't think so.
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