Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: Young Witch  (Read 29698 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2012, 09:48:51 am »
0

Some simulator data should prove helpful here to make things less abstract:

Simple Big Money
Let's take a simple Young Witch Big Money bot which buys 2 YW and money. Let it play against a bot that opens YW/Herbalist (one of the worst banes). The YW+Herbalist beats YW-no bane 58-40.

Now replace Herbalist with Wishing Well (top of the bane list) and the YW+bane beats YW-no bane 80-17 (it buys up to 4 Wishing Wells before Silvers).

Big Money + important $5
Now, if there's a Wharf we really want:
YW+Herbalist (into Wharf) is on par with YW-no bane (into Wharf).

YW+Wishing Well (into Wharf) beats YW-no bane (into Wharf) 72-26


So at least for Big Money games it's probably a safe bet to always open YW/bane instead of YW/Silver.

To expand on this, I think this is still a little problematic to follow blindly, but...
Doing the same thing with YW-money, courtyard bane, vs standard courtyard BM, it's more or less tied, with a miniscule edge to courtyard BM. However, both of these things should change their play a good bit. The YW bot needs to buy CY at some point, and CY dude should be buying more CY, sooner.
Still don't try to use embargo as a bane.
If there are important, non-terminal 5s, things get hairier. Lets look at Lab, which is pretty good with the filtering of YW. Here, you want the bane before your silvers. And you want a couple banes before your labs. Even if they're really bad banes (again, not embargo).

Oh, and by the way, if the opponent doesn't buy the bane at all.... the YW bot beats every single pre-programmed single card strategy I can think to test it against. All the other cursers, jack, ambassador*(I should point out that ambassador is played a little poorly, and this buys only one), masquerade (if it only gets 1 masq), you name it. It even beats the witch bot on a 5/2 start  :o

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2012, 02:44:36 am »
0

Is YW still a viable option for $4 if you know you're never going to be able to attack your opponent?

I just played a game where I opened first for $4 and chose Bridge over YW as Scheme was the bane.
Luckily, my opponent had 4/3 instead of 3/4 so I could see him grabbing the YW and react with Scheme before my reshuffle.

I mean, what would be a good price for YW if you can't ever attack? $2?
Warehouse is almost strictly better as it cycles 3 and gives an action and that's a $3 card.

Still, in that game my opponent didn't have a real good game plan. I went Market / Bridge to buy up all the Peddlers and with an extra buy I snagged one of his crucial Golds with Noble Brigand and he resigned.

But getting back to the issue: If Scheme is the bane, is YW always skippable? Are there certain kingdoms that need the small cycling ability on its own (and let's say Warehouse isn't available)?
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2208
  • Respect: +2853
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 03:09:36 am »
0

Moat is a $2 card that just draws 2 cards. If you factor in the cost of getting Scheme over a Silver, I'd put YW at a weak $2.

The only situation I can think of where you might want YW for only the cycling is a game with lots of free Actions (TR/Villages), and  Watchtower, and terminal +$ (if it's non-terminal, I don't think YW is worth detouring for), and something like Ironworks/Talisman to get lots of them fast enough for it to be viable.

Also, if your Scheme gets Minioned away, or if you choose to discard it because you could guarantee a Province, then YW could hit.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9184
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2012, 03:42:12 am »
0

You might want Young Witch to trigger Tunnels.
Logged

cherdano

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 166
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 03:53:40 am »
+4

Reminds me of the game where my opponent complained about his bad luck because his YWs wer hitting my scheme every single time.
Logged

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1559
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2012, 08:57:01 am »
0

Is YW still a viable option for $4 if you know you're never going to be able to attack your opponent?

I just played a game where I opened first for $4 and chose Bridge over YW as Scheme was the bane.
Luckily, my opponent had 4/3 instead of 3/4 so I could see him grabbing the YW and react with Scheme before my reshuffle.

I mean, what would be a good price for YW if you can't ever attack? $2?
Warehouse is almost strictly better as it cycles 3 and gives an action and that's a $3 card.

Still, in that game my opponent didn't have a real good game plan. I went Market / Bridge to buy up all the Peddlers and with an extra buy I snagged one of his crucial Golds with Noble Brigand and he resigned.

But getting back to the issue: If Scheme is the bane, is YW always skippable? Are there certain kingdoms that need the small cycling ability on its own (and let's say Warehouse isn't available)?

Thing is, if you buy Young Witch, then your opponent is forced to buy a Scheme and repeatedly top-deck it, so it's basically a wasted buy for them. If you get some use out of Young Witch's sifting, then you can come out ahead. Compare a YW/Silver vs Silver/Scheme matchup to a Moat/Silver vs Silver/nothing matchup.

Also, as first player, you have a small but non-negligible chance of getting a single curse through before the second player reaches the Scheme.
Logged

Lekkit

  • 2011 Swedish Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1253
  • Shuffle iT Username: Lekkit
  • Respect: +674
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2012, 10:36:39 am »
+1

Reminds me of the game where my opponent complained about his bad luck because his YWs wer hitting my scheme every single time.

This actually happened to me the other day. He then started to complain about me always getting KC-KC and a bunch of action cards. People these days... ;)
Logged

dudeabides

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Shuffle iT Username: dudeabides
  • Respect: +136
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2013, 08:33:27 pm »
+4

One interesting aspect of YW that hasn't been discussed yet is the signaling that goes on between players.  This example obviously hinges on what the bane card is exactly and what other cards are available.  Assume the bane isn't completely worthless, but it isn't a must-have card.  I can open Bane/Silver as if I'm not going to be getting a YW.  My opponent sees this, and skips getting banes.  For a game with +Buys and no trasher that is going to last sufficiently long, I can accumulate most of the banes and then move into YW after my opponent is defenseless.   

For example, I just finished a game with Shanty Town as the bane (middle of the road), a +Buy with Nomad Camp, Cellar for cycling, Smithy and Library for draw, and Mandarin for top-decking.  We both open $5/2.  I go Mandarin/Shanty Town/Crossroads, while opponent opens Library/Cellar.  Opponent gets YW on turn 3, while I go Nomad Camp for the +Buy.  I pick up one curse early, but by turn 8 when I get my YW, I have 4 Shanties to my opponent's 2.  I get a 2nd YW on turn 9 and am able to deliver 6 Curses while only receiving 1 before my opponent resigns on turn 20.
Log:  http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/08/game-20130208-155441-739c7b38.html

While the Bane in game one of the 2012 DominionStrategy.com tournament is Wishing Well (with Apothecary to further strengthen it), Stef does a similar thing, opening Potion/WW.  Stef waits until turn 8 to pick up the first YW, by which time he is already well defended with his WWs.  This having been said, Stef does get incredibly lucky to have WW in hand whenever Mic has YW. 
Log:  http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20130203-102530-a4adbff2.html

My real motive for making this post is, of course, to liken myself to Stef ;)
Logged
jsh357: the dude doesn't need to explain himself

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2013, 09:06:35 pm »
0

YW is a good card to pick up if you have excess actions and need to sift through cards for Watchtower, Library, or Menagerie. It is actually a solid enabler for all of these cards provided the existence of extra actions, which, in combination, is not that common, but it is something to watch out for.

I think the simulations also miss out on, for example, opening YW/Silver and picking up the bane at the next opportunity vs. opening YW/bane and trying to get to $5. If there are $5s that I really want (Hunting Party is the best example I can think of), then I'll open YW/Silver.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 09:09:08 pm by dondon151 »
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2013, 11:26:22 pm »
0

The discussion about Tunnel made me wonder, what would you guys do if there is some other wonderful Tunnel enabler and Tunnel is the bane? I think if there is Warehouse and a Tunnel-bane, I'd skip YW. Because even if I happen to get some courses after massing Tunnel, Warehouse will help with that, and with lots of Gold, you can manage to buy Provinces after playing two Warehouses with no problem.

On the other hand, Vault-Tunnel should be usually great, but in this case, seems like a terrible idea because to get Vault you need to open at least one Silver, and opening Tunnel/Silver you have a pretty decent chance of getting cursed (just 1 bane) or not getting Vault. And if both things happen, you are completely screwed. Maybe opening double Silver, take the first course, and after having Vault just mass Tunnels first and go into Gold/Provinces afterwards. Maybe with two or three Vaults you can overcome several Curses and beat a YW+BM opponent?
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2013, 12:31:37 am »
0

Maybe opening double Silver, take the first course, and after having Vault just mass Tunnels first and go into Gold/Provinces afterwards. Maybe with two or three Vaults you can overcome several Curses and beat a YW+BM opponent?

No, I don't think so. I distinctly remember trying this one and failing miserably. The YW player will get to Vaults eventually anyway. The Vault player can't ignore YW.
Logged

Asklepios

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 394
  • Respect: +116
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2013, 12:42:43 pm »
0

Banes, in rough order from worst to best:
*snipped most of list*
Courtyard
Steward
Hamlet
Swindler
Wishing Well
Fool's Gold
Fishing Village
Scheme
Lighthouse
Chapel
Masquerade
Ambassador

Great list. I snipped it at that point though as I think that Courtyard is a stronger Bane than some of those below it. Courtyard is often going to be in your hand, as if you run two courtyards you'll often put the other one back on top of your deck. I'd certainly say its at the right end of your list.

Also, I'd say Chapel is not all that great a bane. Sure, there's likely to be a slim chapelled deck, but that same slim deck is also going to be more easily damaged by curses.
Similar thinking for Fool's Gold - you might be likely to hit them because they're bought en masse, but equally a curse or two does a lot more damage to a fool's gold deck than to an engine strategy.

That in mind, my personal list would go:

Wishing Well
Fool's Gold
Steward
Hamlet
Chapel
Courtyard
Fishing Village
Swindler
Lighthouse
Scheme
Masquerade
Ambassador

Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2013, 06:15:47 pm »
0

How would Swindler be that good of a bane? It's not spammable, doesn't contribute to decreasing your own deck size, and it doesn't have those cool tricks like sometimes being returned to the top of your deck.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1344
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2013, 08:00:37 pm »
+1

Because it's a good card. I mean, it's a curser itself. I think Swindler/Swindler is a better opening than YW/Swindler or YW/Silver if Swindler is a bane.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2013, 08:10:26 pm »
0

Because it's a good card. I mean, it's a curser itself. I think Swindler/Swindler is a better opening than YW/Swindler or YW/Silver if Swindler is a bane.

And +2$ is way better than the sifting of YW. I wonder if the YW player would even be cursing its opponent more or not. Maybe you have a chance at an even split (especially consider you can swindle the YW at some point, delaying incoming curses).
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1058
  • Respect: +762
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2013, 11:31:57 pm »
0

How would Swindler be that good of a bane? It's not spammable, doesn't contribute to decreasing your own deck size, and it doesn't have those cool tricks like sometimes being returned to the top of your deck.

It gives out curses - so Yw won't eventually give them all to you if you ignore her yourself, its cursing has a bigger effect on money density than Yw, it gives $2 which is a LOT better at hitting 5 & 6 than Yw/anything-but-Tunnel, it increases the odds that Yw will miss the second shuffle (decent odds if you are P1), and it has a non-negligible chance of turning the Yw herself into something useless. Yeah, there are many stronger banes - Lighthouse, Scheme, and Masq all come to mind ... but it certainly is strong enough on some boards to skip Yw and even to double up against Yw if the other guy grabs her.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2013, 12:33:45 am »
0

I think you are missing the context of my response. The post to which I was replying had Swindler above FV, Hamlet, and FG, which I disagree with. It is not really the best idea to load up with Swindlers because at some point the collisions become counterproductive.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2013, 01:40:42 am »
0

I think you are missing the context of my response. The post to which I was replying had Swindler above FV, Hamlet, and FG, which I disagree with. It is not really the best idea to load up with Swindlers because at some point the collisions become counterproductive.

But double swindler is a way better opening than double FV (if there is no great engine potential) and double Hamlet. Also, with swindler also giving out curses, you don't really need to load up, I guess the approach would be to get 2, maybe a third later on, and trust on an even split more than on avoiding curses. If the other guy gets swindler + YW, then he will have some collissions as well.
Logged

Asklepios

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 394
  • Respect: +116
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2013, 08:16:07 am »
0

Pretty much what Soulnet says.

In a board with Young Witch, Swindler, FV, Hamlet and Fool's Gold, if my opponent opens Young Witch, my reply, I think, would be Swindler.

And more to topic, if I had the theoretical ability to choose which of those cards was the Bane, I'd go with Swindler. Of course, I'm open to being convinced otherwise: you are the US Champion after all!

Obviously there's a lot of "it depends" here, as always. I shifted swindler more as an afterthought than anything else. What do you make of the repositioning of Courtyard though, dondon151?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 08:18:28 am by Asklepios »
Logged

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +604
    • View Profile
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2013, 11:04:37 am »
0

Fool's Gold is an excellent card as a bane, and can easily stop a player from getting any curses.
Logged
A man on a mission.

Warfreak2

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1149
  • KC->KC->[Scavenger, Scavenger, Lookout]
  • Respect: +1324
    • View Profile
    • Music what I do
Re: Young Witch
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2013, 05:44:12 am »
0

I think there should be two lists; bane quality depends on whether you buy YW or not. Tunnel would be near the top of the first list and near the bottom of the second.
Logged
If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.049 seconds with 22 queries.