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[Voltgloss]

Prods sent to SFS and Grujah.

[popsofctown]

Glooble wants to win the game by lynching townies.  I'm warming to that lynch. 

[popsofctown]

Lynching Glooble, that is.  I still don't see how townGlooble+scumJoth is likely.

[Glooble]

You know what, you're right. My gut tells me jo is town and I should be standing by that.

Look at pop's behavior. He has two votes on him and he starts redirecting suspicion back towards me, someone the town has already shown suspicion towards. He's trying to move the conversation away from the pops/Galz discussion.

Let's see what happens when we turn up the pressure.

VOTE: popsofctown

[popsofctown]

You were playing to the scum wincon.  You don't even understand how I could get that idea?

[Robz888]

What's amazing is how Jo and Glooble seem to want to outdo each other for my vote. Every time I am more sure of one, the other chimes in to absorb my suspicions. That's what brothers are for?

[O]

Unvote

Not like it had much effect anyways, but Pops, Glooble, and Jo are all way too nuts to justify me continuing to vote for CF

Vote:Glooble

It's between Glooble and Pops, TBH.

[Robz888]

Unvote

Not like it had much effect anyways, but Pops, Glooble, and Jo are all way too nuts to justify me continuing to vote for CF

Vote:Glooble

It's between Glooble and Pops, TBH.

Cheers. Except I don't think we should lynch Pops. I'm really, really, really, really torn between Glooble and Jo, though.

[jotheonah]

do you think pops is above reproach? explain your town read on him, Robz, in light of Galzria's arguments.

[Galzria]

do you think pops is above reproach? explain your town read on him, Robz, in light of Galzria's arguments.

Actually, I have no problem with Robz's statement. He's one of my town reads, and like O, I trust him. I would LIKE to lynch Pops, but I've already laid out my case. I'm not going to keep pounding the drum trying to twist peoples arms into joining me. If they want to do so, they can by their own reads and reasons.

I'm tempted by their case against Grooble, but right now primarily see you as my fallback option to lynch. My vote, I think, will stay on Pops where it belongs, but if I feel it's the overall right choice for the town, I'll switch if needed.

[Robz888]

do you think pops is above reproach? explain your town read on him, Robz, in light of Galzria's arguments.

Sure.

He is playing the most forwardly irritating game of anyone so far in any game of mafia. His posts are short, incomprehensible, accusatory, sniping. He's being like this deliberately. I can't for the life of me picture a member of the mafia (or SK) planning to behave like this. Why not? Because the irritants have come under fire and been lynched early in every other game of mafia. They draw immediate targets on their back. And Pops is the guy who has played this game before! Morgrim can't help being a nut and getting lynched, I guess. Why would Pops decide to be Morgrim? Decide to be TINAS? It carries a high likelihood of immediate lynch. Indeed, he's been a candidate very day.

I can't imagine he would pick this strategy, this strategy that has alienated him from everyone, if he were mafia. However, I can see him picking it if he were town. I can imagine a couple scenarios. One, this is how he gathers info, by seeing how people respond to his sniping. Two, he has a power role, and acting in this irritable manner makes him less of a target for the mafia at night, because the mafia don't want to kill someone who annoys and draws suspicion from the town.

I've also agreed with much of his analysis when he does talk seriously, about SFS and some other matters.

So, he's fairly acquitted in my eyes, at least.

[jotheonah]

do you think pops is above reproach? explain your town read on him, Robz, in light of Galzria's arguments.

Sure.

He is playing the most forwardly irritating game of anyone so far in any game of mafia. His posts are short, incomprehensible, accusatory, sniping. He's being like this deliberately. I can't for the life of me picture a member of the mafia (or SK) planning to behave like this. Why not? Because the irritants have come under fire and been lynched early in every other game of mafia. They draw immediate targets on their back. And Pops is the guy who has played this game before! Morgrim can't help being a nut and getting lynched, I guess. Why would Pops decide to be Morgrim? Decide to be TINAS? It carries a high likelihood of immediate lynch. Indeed, he's been a candidate very day.

This does not seem consistent with your insistence that I am mafia, given that you also consider my play to be erratic to the point of lynch-bating and you consider me to be a good player.

[jotheonah]

And anything you can say about me like "Well, it's working isn't it, you're not getting lynched" can also be said of pops.

[Robz888]

Yeah, I don't think you're playing too similar to Pops, Jo. You change your tune a lot in this game depending upon how close you are to being lynched. A lot a lot. You aren't as consistently and forwardly irritating as Pops. Like, right now you're not. Your asking me questions and we are carrying on an intelligent and rational conversation. For now.

Also, my opinion of you is colored by my relationship with you from MII, where you acted differently than you had here. Much differently. If this was your first game, and you behaved this way, it may not have stuck out to me as much.

[jotheonah]

I get why self-preservation (i.e. increased lucidity with lynch proximity) looks like a scum tell.

But self-preservation is a basic human instinct. It happens to town also. Even in so far as I've accepted my lynch, as it draws near I subconciously become more careful, etc.

That's actually one of the things that bugs me about pops. When it looks like he's going to be lynched he just plows right on through. There's no panic, no effort to be suddenly more town friendly.  And that sort of seems like an experienced mafia player overcompensating so much that he doesn't even have a healthy, townish level of self-preservation.

[jotheonah]

And of course, the next question is "but why don't you play that way all the time?"

And at this point, the answer is it's hard to see the motivation when nobody takes you seriously and people say that your arguments actually convince them of the opposite thing. At that point you have to adjust your playstyle. Maybe you decide that the best way to help town is just to be maximally transparent so that you'll be helpful posthumously after your flip. Or by pushing the wagons you like and enjoying the fact that your push on the wagon won't be scrutinized in the same way.

[Robz888]

I get why self-preservation (i.e. increased lucidity with lynch proximity) looks like a scum tell.

But self-preservation is a basic human instinct. It happens to town also. Even in so far as I've accepted my lynch, as it draws near I subconciously become more careful, etc.

That's actually one of the things that bugs me about pops. When it looks like he's going to be lynched he just plows right on through. There's no panic, no effort to be suddenly more town friendly.  And that sort of seems like an experienced mafia player overcompensating so much that he doesn't even have a healthy, townish level of self-preservation.

You're right, it does seem like an experienced mafia player. But why would he put himself in that position in the first place? Surely he would no not to behave like this.

[O]

I get why self-preservation (i.e. increased lucidity with lynch proximity) looks like a scum tell.

But self-preservation is a basic human instinct. It happens to town also. Even in so far as I've accepted my lynch, as it draws near I subconciously become more careful, etc.

That's actually one of the things that bugs me about pops. When it looks like he's going to be lynched he just plows right on through. There's no panic, no effort to be suddenly more town friendly.  And that sort of seems like an experienced mafia player overcompensating so much that he doesn't even have a healthy, townish level of self-preservation.

You're right, it does seem like an experienced mafia player. But why would he put himself in that position in the first place? Surely he would no not to behave like this.

...Nope, he's not "experienced" in this. I actually went ahead and read some of Pops actions in Mafiascum mafia (while he was town). While his antics work well in a community where everyone uses that play style (mafiascum), they're entirely ineffective in a community that lacks those standard conventions. If he played in one of my IRL mafia games, he would probably just be lynched D1-2 every game if he played like this, because IRL calls for different conventions. And since he's playing on FDS, not mafiascum, he can drop the useless "derp I'm going to be vague and unhelpful and it's OK because they won't lynch an experienced mafia player".

TLDR He's very dangerous if he's mafia due to people like Robz accepting his play style, and he's relatively useless as town because people here haven't come close to settling on the conventions of discussion that Mafiascum has coalesced around, which have no use here.

[Glooble]

You were playing to the scum wincon.  You don't even understand how I could get that idea?

As has so often happened this game, I saw the scumminess of my own logic as soon as it was too late to do anything about it. Aw well. This is how we learn. I should explain the logic behind my post better.

This town was dead while we waited for Galz. Like totally dead. If conversation grinds to a halt in the absence of a particular player, I'm inclined to think of removing that player as bad for the town. That's why I was hesitant to cast a pops vote, thereby ratcheting up the pops vs. Galz situation.

It's a question of higher chance of hitting scum now balanced against higher chance of hitting scum later. It seemed to me, lynching a townjo would not be a bad trade-off in that regard, since both his erratic actions and the suspicions they've generated create a lot of noise, which is bad for the town.

So I was looking at three options I didn't like, but it seemed obvious to me that lynching jo was better for the town than lynching me, not only because there actually is a possibility he's scum, since I'm sure some of you genuinely think he is, and I wanted to state that.

I am going to keep my vote on pops now though. I genuinely agree with Galzria's analysis, and find him to be the most likely scum candidate at the moment. I would like to reiterate my earlier suspicions about O, who just saw a bandwagon and went for it.

[Captain_Frisk]

You were playing to the scum wincon.  You don't even understand how I could get that idea?

As has so often happened this game, I saw the scumminess of my own logic as soon as it was too late to do anything about it. Aw well. This is how we learn. I should explain the logic behind my post better.

This town was dead while we waited for Galz. Like totally dead. If conversation grinds to a halt in the absence of a particular player, I'm inclined to think of removing that player as bad for the town. That's why I was hesitant to cast a pops vote, thereby ratcheting up the pops vs. Galz situation.

To be fair, there was an expectation of a whopping analysis which was promised and then didn't materialize, nobody wanted to proceed forward with other lynching until we saw the promised details.  The dead weekend doesn't really surprise me, because weekends are hard, father's day more so.

So it looks like we're primarily talking about 4 candaites:

Too Big To Fail Bunch
Galz: suspicion seems to have died down.  Still eligible for a policy lynch based on "Lynch all Liars"
Pops: Galz makes some reasonable points.  I also went and skimmed through some of pops' stuff on mafia scum, and he's just as much of a pain in the [waste removal hole] over there, so I'm coming around to the viewpoint of "that's just the way the game is played"  He even uses his goofy slang as well - which I didn't see when browsing his normal
topics over here on f.ds.

The wundertwins
Glooble - I am still skeptical that it would be anything resembling mafia play to twinclaim as Glooble if Glooble is Mafia and J is town
J - I feel that he's the safer pick between these two, but the ease in which we are gaining votes on them makes me fear that mafia is involved.  Robz's points of "let me vote for everyone but me" on him does resonate with me.

If we assume 3 mafia, that leaves 9 non mafia.  7 out of 9 need to get together to lynch, which is going to be hard.

@O - welcome back, where have you been all my life?

[Voltgloss]

Vote Count 2-13B

Galzria (1): popsofctown
O (1): SwitchedFromStarcraft
jotheonah (4): Dsell, Tables, Robz888, Axxle
popsofctown (3): Galzria, jotheonah, Glooble
Glooble (1): O

Not voting {2}: Grujah, Captain_Frisk

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Lynch Deadline:  Monday, June 25, 9:59 a.m. EDT

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote Count 2-13

Lynch Deadline:  Monday, June 25, 9:59 a.m. EDT[/b]

Any updates on the prodding?

[popsofctown]

Ok guys.  Here's where I'm at.  Here's where I'm at.

Glooble is nullish.  He sounds like he has a townie perspective some of the time, but his passive D1 behavior stands.  His early D2 posting was very lucid and seemed like he was really trying to geet things done.

Galzria is scummy, but he's not obvscum and he's -active-, so I have more time to read him.  Plus he's unlynchable right now because my reasons are largely the only reasons you'd want to lynch him, and I'm not a popular guy.

Joth can't be town if Glooble is town; he wouldn't misread his twin.  Part of being a good mafia player is teamwork, and considering other's expertise is important.  Some guys are good at reading everyone, I listen to those people.  This is a special case where Glooble ought to be an expert on this one player.  Unless joth just straight up claims scum (uh, figure of speech), he's not worth lynching.

Of course I am not a good lynch today, because although you are saying all sorts of nasty things that hurt my feelings right now I know deep down inside all of you have hearts full of love for me.

So the spotlight isn't on scum, the scum must be in the shadows.  Axxle2 and Grujah are good people to consider.  I'd write up the reasons to lynch Axxle2 but I feel like Grujah needs a fair shot to say the wrong things.

[Robz888]

I think our focus has to be on some of the right people already, since no mafia have come out of the woodwork to push bandwagons. I have been pushing for a Jo lynch for, uh, weeks in real time, and never quite get there. In contrast, lynching Axxle1 was easy breezy for the people who pushed that. So, look, we should probably lynch Jo.

[popsofctown]

You think you know jo better than Glooble?