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[popsofctown]

busy this weekend

[Axxle]

Wait, so your plan was to make a poor argument and then strongly suspect people who accuse you of making a poor argument?  An ass backwards plan if I ever saw one.  Did you not think that Robz stirred the pot enough with his post?  I think that it's much more likely that you expected some people to go along with it and took so long coming up with this post because you wanted to come up with a convincing backpedal.

[Axxle]

For all the Mafia knows, the SK might be bulletproof, why would they risk NK'ing him?

[jotheonah]

And Axxle2 comes back with some good points.  But actually that post makes more sense to me as gambitting town Galz then Mafia Galz. Mafia Galz is subtler.

[Axxle]

Galz, what parts of #1385 were genuine? Do you think he is actually the SK?

[Captain_Frisk]

Unvote

Anyone savvy enough to craft such a fantastic town gambit is savvy enough to put forth a weak (bad?) argument and see if he could get another mislynch, with this "town gambit" excuse as a way to get out if things went south.

As for not giving reasons for my voting, I felt like the most likely suspects on the Axxlewagon were Galz and Pops.  I wanted to see the reaction from a unjustified vote, and the only person who cared was Axxle2.  I tend to think that my vote would be less questioned by mafia for an easily attacked point if it were on town, but I don't want to let Galz off the hook, and I still feel like he's semi - shielding J.

[Galzria]

Wait, so your plan was to make a poor argument and then strongly suspect people who accuse you of making a poor argument?  An ass backwards plan if I ever saw one.  Did you not think that Robz stirred the pot enough with his post?  I think that it's much more likely that you expected some people to go along with it and took so long coming up with this post because you wanted to come up with a convincing backpedal.

Then lynch me, look like a fool, and the Mafia you likely are.

They would risk NK'ing him even if he were bullet proof because if they fail, only 1 person dies that night (SK's target), which makes it look like there was a OSV (N1 when 2 targets died) instead of SK. Something they don't care about, but as a bonus, they now know who the SK is, as well as that the SK is bullet-proof.

There are 12 of us left. In a worst case scenario for Mafia, after a Pro-Town D2 lynch, 1 Mafia dies to SK at night, leaving:

1 SK (known now to the Mafia, and known to be bullet-proof)
2 Mafia
7 Town

Not exactly a disadvantagous spot for the Mafia to be in. If instead of hitting Mafia the SK had hit town, it would be even better.

As to your next question about if I think Robz is a SK - No.

[jotheonah]

Galzria, I would humbly suggest that giving Axxle a pass because you don't want to lynch the same player two days in a row is dumb.  You have to play slots, not people. That was a null slot Day 1 because Green Opal posted too little to get a good read. Day 2 it's an increasingly scummier slot.

I'm not saying Lynch Axxle. I'm just saying, don't avoid lynching Axxle just because he's Axxle if you think he's the most likely mafia.

[Voltgloss]

Vote Count 2-10

Captain_Frisk (1): O
popsofctown (1): Tables
Galzria (2): popsofctown, Axxle
O (1): SwitchedFromStarcraft
jotheonah (1): Dsell

Not voting {6}: Glooble, Grujah, Robz888, Galzria, jotheonah, Captain_Frisk

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

[Grujah]

Guys, sorry for not responding almost at all day 2. Should be more free from monday onwards, its was finals week.

[Tables]

Okay, well, that was an interesting post from Galz. I'm definitely undecided on it being the town gamit Galz claims, or a mafia bluff. It's certainly clever enough for Mafia Galz. As for the points he makes, if he's telling the truth it all makes sense, I don't see any major problems with the claim. Looking back at the initial posts though... ehh. I'm not entirely convinced. And while Axxle2's strawmanned the analysis you did, his point does also kinda ring true.

That said, Galz did very explicitly claim Townie. And that's really thrown me. Why? What was to gain from it? That post was very explicitly well thought out, so there must have been something you want from it?

As an aside if it's true though... we've had two townies, a Village Idiot dead and two more Townies, and a one-shot cop alive. Of course, there's a number of other unconfirmed roles too, but would 2 mafia plus a SK make sense considering that? Remember the setup is balanced depending on number of roles.

[jotheonah]

I don't think Galz claimed vanilla, just town. And a town claim is implicit from everyone anyway.

[Tables]

He claimed 'Townie'. Townie is the name most commonly used to refer to a town player with no role. He claimed to be Vanilla Town, or Blue, or a Villager, or whatever else you like to call it.

[Tables]

Edit: And he put it in bold, just to emphasise the point he was a generic townie.

[jotheonah]

I don't read it as a role claim, just an alignment claim. Galz can clarify.

[Galzria]

I don't read it as a role claim, just an alignment claim. Galz can clarify.

J has the right of intent in this case. The statement came in a paragraph where I was talking about how the Mafia would see me. Knowing I'm not one of them, they know I'm a Townie. It was a faction claim, not a role claim.

I'm not confirming or denying anything beyond that, and any speculation is done entirely at your own risk.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Edit: And he put it in bold, just to emphasise the point he was a generic townie.

I don't see how boldface means generic therefore vanilla. In my (RL) lexicon, Townie means local, but some of the towniest people I've ever known held community/professional roles that society typically describes as powerful:  doctors, etc.

This is such an incredibly confident proscription that it stands out like a sore thumb to me.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Can someone respond to my first inquiry (addressed to "All except O) in post #1503 so that I can decide on whether to press O on the issue I raised.

In the case that simply providing me with a hypothetical could be damaging, I'll accept that, but I'd like to hear from more than one person.

[jotheonah]

@SFS Basically, the mafia already know everyone's alignment (except the SK's). But they don't know roles. So role reveals are bad because they give the mafia more information. Rolefishing is similarly bad, and also looks scummy, because the mafia are the ones who want to know who has roles (so they can kill them).

[Captain_Frisk]

...Hell, I'll go ahead and say it: We all know SFS is lying. The question is only in which direction (Its very very likely town). (OMG HE GAVE ADVICE AN IDIOT MAFIA WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DECIPHER WITHOUT HIS HELP HE MUST BE MAFIA): No, if we had an idiot mafia our choices would be a lot easier atm.

Emphasis mine.
I actually laughed out loud, so thanks for that, and for making the game (suddenly) a lot more enjoyable.

That being said, I like Robz's case against Glooble, and you clearly don't.  You also clearly cannot tell whose lying and who isn't. The intersection of those two sets worries me.  So does your disclaimer early in the quoted post (which I unfortunately deleted for the sake of brevity), where you say "Now, more out of boredom/desire debate then real disagreement (I haven't settled on your case yet), I'll ask you some questions" yet the post itself is pretty strong evidence that you DO disagree AND YOU ASKED NO QUESTIONS! (Yes, I know the last point ended in a question mark, but the words failed to pose a question.)

VOTE: 0 (aka .)

....I stopped after Pops said rolehunting was a terrible idea, but if you really are going to vote for me I'll explicity explain myself, which is nearly certainly not good for town.

Well, I want to be fair, and not affect the outcome of the game any more than I already have (I guess now I'm glad I voted for the discussion thread, cause I'm probably enormously entertaining there) so:

@All other than O - Can someone give me an example (or a hypothetical) of a situation where a player responding to thoughts such as mine in the quoted post be bad for the town?  For extra credit, confirm (or make me doubt) my thinking that offering but deferring a response because it 'would not be good for the town' is just as likely a mafia thing to say as a town thing to say.

Per your recent request.

Hypothetical situation:  You are the town role cop.  You investigate someone who acts suspicious.  Let's call this random person "Morgrim7".  Morgrim7 comes back as "Doctor".

Unless you or Morgrim7 are about to be lynched, you should keep your mouth shut. 

This is why everyone is mad at you about poor town play.  By claiming One Shot Cop, you've helped the mafia clarify what roles are in the game.

[Tables]

Galz: Okay. Townie is almost always used as the name of the generic powerless town role, though, in my experience, and putting it in bold definitely seemed to suggest you wanted extra emphasis on the point. And saying townie instead of town as well. It didn't even cross my mind that it might just be you saying you were town until Joth pointed it out :-/.

SFS: Are you seriously going to suggest that someone using common terminology in a non-standard way getting interpreted in the common way, when they can very easily correct it, is something to be suspicious of?

[popsofctown]

Galzria, the issue with town gambits is that you're lying.  You either lied then or are lying now, because you didn't believe in your Robz case.  That triggers a broad range of psychological effects that read scummily.  So you're left with no one to blame but yourself if you get lynched - you've essentially sent yourself a scum pm instead of a town one and then played the game.

Don't do it again.

Green Opal was scummier than null D1.  Axxle2 has been forgettable.  Galz and Axxle2 are both scummy to me, but definitely in separate prisms.  I CAN read Galzria's post as marvelous scum damage control.  I can read it the other way too.  "I'm probably going to get lynched for making a long post" is so survivalist it's irritating, and "we should all care about nightkills, it's how people die" seems like a very reachy way to nullify my concern - nightkills are how 2/3s of players have died so far, but we have a 1/50th as much of control over those deaths. It also seems over defensive because the cooky fake case on Robz story could cover it anyway.  "I was preoccupied with NKs because I was SK hunting but the SK hunting was fake haha gotcha."

Idk what hedging is you folk will have to explain it to me.  I've never heard of it before so I can't own or disown the behavior.

[Galzria]

Aww, look at Pops come out and play "Mr. Mafia" again. It's almost cute.

By the way, I didn't say I would get lynched for making a long post, O did. Nice try however.

[jotheonah]

more convinced than ever that one of you is mafia. just gotta figure out which one.

rest of the town?

pops, hedging is when you post in such a way that no matter how someone flips you can point to your post and say "I did/didn't think he was scum" so you always seem right.

[popsofctown]

i see, a survivalist tell.

I think I've heard it called "fence sitting", but am usually skeptical because it can be townie indecision.

Of course it always depends on context and perspective.  It depends whether the purpose seems to be preservation or not.