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[popsofctown]

Lynch mafia, not scum :/

[popsofctown]

Have I unvoted my joke vote?

[theorel]

cool, I finished it:
#330: cast suspicion on Axxle/Tables
Also mentions feelings on others
And a willingness to hammer/bandwagon while voting Insomniac.
-anyways, this post just struck me as off.

#354 he starts the "we, townies" suspicion on J.  (which as mentioned I disagree with)

#383/#397 (the quick win over to Pops)

#447: casts suspicion on Axxle again.

#555: brings back up Tables/Axxle, and adds in some SFS suspicion

#595 SFS again. #604 again

Obviously this could all be newbie town.  It strikes me that he's put himself into a position where he's willing to switch to lots of people, plus he's got the whole "I'm impressionable" defense.  Probably a big part of it is: I disagree with the reason for his suspicion of Tables/Axxle from 330.  I disagree with his reasoning in 354.

I'll have to look into the SFS push, but I'm betting I'll disagree there.  Maybe we just find different things suspicious?  Maybe he's grasping at straws, trying to fake scum-hunting and playing newb to be able to wagon anybody.

As far as the "it's obviously mafia" I'm going with the obvious mafia play is obvious mafia play, not town play.  Which I will hereby always abbreviate as "Obvious play is obvious"


---
@Pops: I think reasonably long well-reasoned posts slow down posting and help people catch up.  With time-zones and work schedules someone's always going to be catching up.  I think longer posts slow the game down because people start reading, rereading and thinking more while talking less.

[O]

Right now, I'm feeling some nervousness about DSell.  He's hanging around the middle post count wise, and his major contributions to date have been:

1. Jumping on pops for his terse play yesterday.
2. Railing on SFS - which reads like "picking on noob and hoping he cracks"  Maybe this is good play, but it seemed to go on a little further than was strictly necessary.

While I don't like pops' play, I'm putting him in the "O" camp for now... as in too crazy to get a meaningful read - so I saw DSell as just potentially trying to rile up the town.

Vote: DSell

So.. we're voting for people with a *middle* vote count now?

Hey, mafia buddies, you should probably start posting less or more, either one will get Captain Frisk less suspicious of you!

That being said, Dsell did bandwagon *twice*.



@Tables: I find your arguments terrible to the point of offense. Me and Galzria are more than allowed to spend our time having "fun", and despite "wasting" several pages have actually still contributed more to the scumhunt than you.

[theorel]

bah, I need to preview edit rather than post-edit more:

It should say:
As far as the "it's too obviously mafia, must be town" defense, I'm going with: obvious mafia play is obvious mafia play, not town play.  Which I will hereby always abbreviate as "Obvious play is obvious"

[O]

SFS is a professional poker player. Since he is A) town and B) good at reading people we should all just copy him.

unvote, vote Robz

What is this? I don't even...

Professional poker player does not mean he's good at reading people online, it means he's good at reading peoples face. (Unless he's a pro online poker player). That said why the hell are you so sure he's town?

Also I can't remember who started it but O didn't start he bandwagon on pops, I did, O made it a bandwagon by joining me

So you're saying if he is a pro at online poker and forum mafia you would sheep him?

I actually had forgotten that you had a vote on Pops at the time, and certainly didn't think your vote was really serious.

[popsofctown]

Insomniac's vote on me is dead serious

[O]

Insomniac's vote on me is dead serious

I realized that after he accused me of starting a bandwagon.

[Dsell]

That being said, Dsell did bandwagon *twice*.

I did NOT bandwagon on pops. I was frustrated with him, but I specifically did not vote for him because 1) I did not want to vote when I was upset, better to cool down and think things through, and 2) things were really moving fast. The vote has not gone anywhere, which I think is good for this point of the game, but I agree with the people who suspect that at least one mafia was on board there (if pops is town, so I guess we can't know for sure). I will try to address that in a later post.

[Insomniac]

Insomniac's vote on me is dead serious

I realized that after he accused me of starting a bandwagon.

To be clear I don't think you started a bandwagon it just wasn't one until you voted for him. I voted for him before it was cool

That being said, Dsell did bandwagon *twice*.

I did NOT bandwagon on pops. I was frustrated with him, but I specifically did not vote for him because 1) I did not want to vote when I was upset, better to cool down and think things through, and 2) things were really moving fast. The vote has not gone anywhere, which I think is good for this point of the game, but I agree with the people who suspect that at least one mafia was on board there (if pops is town, so I guess we can't know for sure). I will try to address that in a later post.

I have to adress this post with where you say " but I agree with the people who suspect that at least one mafia was on board there (if pops is town, so I guess we can't know for sure)."   Pops being town or mafia doesn't mean a mafia isn't hiding here. If he is mafia it puts you alot in the clear if you were seen voting for one of your partners at some point in time.

[popsofctown]

Mafia are on the joth wagon, not on my wagon.  My wagon is just misguided townies. 

Joth is a very easy vote, but townie gut should exonerate his later posting.  I am suspicious of the people that vote joth, including me.  I double checked my role pm though and I'm good to go.

[Captain_Frisk]

So.. we're voting for people with a *middle* vote count now?

Hey, mafia buddies, you should probably start posting less or more, either one will get Captain Frisk less suspicious of you!

The goal of the mafia is so survive @ all costs.  Each member of them lost makes it harder and harder to control the discussion of the day.

How could one hide as mafia?

1.  Lurk and don't post anything / much.  You can't be suspicious if you don't say anything.  Unfortunately - its apparently standard practice to lynch non participants.
2.  Post a whole lot early (preferably without substance) so you seem pro town.  This is the summary of: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=How_to_Win_as_Mafia:_Calculated_Inaction.  Also - the more you post - the more chance you have of slipping up. 
3.  Play "erratically" - Bluff and be crazy enough that people think that you might be mafia, but you're so crazy that it would be too obvious.  I'd classify you and Pops as potential adopters of a strategy such as this.
4.  Whats left?  Play straight - somewhere in the middle - try to be appear helpful - don't stand out.  You don't need to worry about being night killed for being too protown, because you are mafia.

I do find it interesting that:

A. My vote was largely ignored for a while.
B. DSell was politely defensive.
C. You were then dismissive AND then hedged with a maybe.
D. No-one else has jumped on or expressed any interest.

Contrast this to pops

A. Acts like a jerk.
B. Refuses to defend himself and taunts the town.
C. Bandwagon starts and grows fast, both with votes and suspicions.
D. Calms down as its clear that the frenzy isn't quite enough.

[Captain_Frisk]

I am suspicious of the people that vote joth, including me.  I double checked my role pm though and I'm good to go.

You better watch out O.

Crazy Scoreboard (game started @ 6/5 4:00 PM Eastern):
Pops: 1
O: 0

[Glooble]

Still trying to decide if I'm more of a Robz or a CF when it comes to voting, that is to say "don't vote until you're reasonably certain" or "vote early, vote often".

Hmm... what the hell. Chances are one of the Mafia is new and/or lurking. I know that one isn't me, and I'm finding theorel's reasoning to be very transparent - he's answered my questions in a way that makes sense to me. I said before I was suspicious of SFS, but I'm less so since Robz drew him out and he defended himself. I can sympathize with him suspecting no one, since I kind of feel the same way, though I'm now taking small suspicions and forcing myself to look at them in a better light.
Tables is kind of lurking, but I'm getting the sense he's just overwhelmed. So that leaves Grujah. looking at the posts theorel has highlighted, I can see his point - he posts a lot of short posts, jumps on a lot of bandwagons, and seems to lack strong convictions. It could be overexcited town play, but it reads more like overexcited scum play, i.e. "let me put more votes on whoever has votes so someone gets lynched."
Am I sold? No. But given that 1. we ought to lynch someone today and these's no one I'm certain of, 2. there's a pretty good chance one pops voter is Mafia, since the Mafia would want to hedge their bets, and 3. there's a pretty good chance, statistically, that one of the new or less active players is scum, Grujah seems like a good bet for me to place. I am, of course, fully open to changing this vote when and if someone else looks more suspicious.
Nothing personal.

VOTE: GRUJAH

[Galzria]

VOLT: Can we get an updated vote count? I'm not quite sure I've seen them all come in.

[Green Opal]

pops, you have one weird sense of humour. Everything you're doing is just so off the wall that it's hard not to think there's something weird going on with you... Making (short) posts that require players to stop and do a double-take to try to even have a clue what's going on has to slow down thread comprehension at least as much as a few essays...

I'm slightly gratified that I think I'm the only player who hasn't taken on (written) suspicion in some form from anyone, though that's probably as much a result of my not having given very many posts as anything else.

Also, what's wrong with using emoticons? 

[Galzria]

For the record, I now arbitrarily suspect Green Opal. My reasons are my own.

---

Better?

[Insomniac]

For the record, I now arbitrarily suspect Green Opal. My reasons are my own.

---

Better?

POPS why did you highjack Galzria's login!?!?!?

[Axxle]

I always forget Green Opal is playing. He is an incredibly successful lurker.

[popsofctown]

Responds to... some post number
If I was in my first game I would vote for me right now.  I have a very different mindset than everyone else in this game, which causes the faulty assumption that it arises from a unique motivation.  No, let me rephrase that.  A unique wincon.

Consider that most players around here have mentioned at one point or another that they are afraid of getting nightkilled as town.  That is really backwards thinking.  As VT you should never be scared of getting NKed as town, and as a PR you should care only a smidge more about whether you're appearing so protown you will be NKed.  It's not a team mentality, someone has to get NKed.  It might as well be you.

A similar philosophy applies to being the victim of a lynch.  While it does hurt to be the victim of a lynch, you can easily have an overall positive impact on the game as a lynch victim.  Oftentimes the two day one lynches will be opposite philosophies of what prism through which to view the events of the day.  It arises from many statements being true or false, many pairs of players that are town exclusive-or scum, or two ways of identifying the "scumhiding wagon" and the "idiothiding wagon" of the day.  I don't mean idiot in a rude way since you folks seem rather sensitive and I have to remember some of you are new the Internet and all, I just mean that one wagon is characterized by being misguided.

Sometimes one prism will have a vague idea of what's going on but won't pinpoint who's really the scum within that group of interpretations.  Sometimes the prism very clearly has someone picked out, as in, if we're going to look at the game in this manner at all, X is definitely scum.

My goal is to focus the other prism.  When a town is sure it has caught scum, lynches it, and then realizes it has failed, it always switches prisms.  Actually a lot of times I catch scum because they'll be the ones that forget to switch prisms.  I want to make sure that the game heads in the best direction I can point it day 2, whether I'm there or not.

joth is probably not scum, but I'm actually unsure enough about that that I could roll with procrastinating investigation of his wagon until after he flips.  But I do think if joth is town that his wagon is more likely to contain scum than mine is.  This is some of the pointing I'm trying to do.  SFS is town, that is also some pointing.  I announced it in a way that was abrupt because it gets people talking, like fanning the feathers of so many angry male peacocks so I can read the patterns.  I described why he was town earlier and you should try to appreciate the reasoning in my explanation and put yourself in his shoes.  The poker joke was meant to highlight the concept of sheeping and see how people felt about it and how that related to their reactions to my declarations.  What I've gotten from it is -1 point for Insomniac because he understands it conceptually but voted me for trying to influence others about SFS.

[Glooble]

Green Opal:

Whoah, I totally forgot about you in my list of new people/lurkers. You're exceptionally good at slipping under the radar, it would seem.

Still going with Grujah, but I have my eye on you.

People I have my eye on:
O
pops
Green Opal

a tiny bit Jotheonah

[popsofctown]

vote: glooble for now.

I very much disagree with his opinion of Tables.  Though maybe that means I should vote Tables.

[Insomniac]

Responds to... some post number
If I was in my first game I would vote for me right now.  I have a very different mindset than everyone else in this game, which causes the faulty assumption that it arises from a unique motivation.  No, let me rephrase that.  A unique wincon.

Consider that most players around here have mentioned at one point or another that they are afraid of getting nightkilled as town.  That is really backwards thinking.  As VT you should never be scared of getting NKed as town, and as a PR you should care only a smidge more about whether you're appearing so protown you will be NKed.  It's not a team mentality, someone has to get NKed.  It might as well be you.

A similar philosophy applies to being the victim of a lynch.  While it does hurt to be the victim of a lynch, you can easily have an overall positive impact on the game as a lynch victim.  Oftentimes the two day one lynches will be opposite philosophies of what prism through which to view the events of the day.  It arises from many statements being true or false, many pairs of players that are town exclusive-or scum, or two ways of identifying the "scumhiding wagon" and the "idiothiding wagon" of the day.  I don't mean idiot in a rude way since you folks seem rather sensitive and I have to remember some of you are new the Internet and all, I just mean that one wagon is characterized by being misguided.

Sometimes one prism will have a vague idea of what's going on but won't pinpoint who's really the scum within that group of interpretations.  Sometimes the prism very clearly has someone picked out, as in, if we're going to look at the game in this manner at all, X is definitely scum.

My goal is to focus the other prism.  When a town is sure it has caught scum, lynches it, and then realizes it has failed, it always switches prisms.  Actually a lot of times I catch scum because they'll be the ones that forget to switch prisms.  I want to make sure that the game heads in the best direction I can point it day 2, whether I'm there or not.

joth is probably not scum, but I'm actually unsure enough about that that I could roll with procrastinating investigation of his wagon until after he flips.  But I do think if joth is town that his wagon is more likely to contain scum than mine is.  This is some of the pointing I'm trying to do.  SFS is town, that is also some pointing.  I announced it in a way that was abrupt because it gets people talking, like fanning the feathers of so many angry male peacocks so I can read the patterns.  I described why he was town earlier and you should try to appreciate the reasoning in my explanation and put yourself in his shoes.  The poker joke was meant to highlight the concept of sheeping and see how people felt about it and how that related to their reactions to my declarations.  What I've gotten from it is -1 point for Insomniac because he understands it conceptually but voted me for trying to influence others about SFS.

I don't care if I got -1 point. I never said I would sheep follow him I pointed out why him being a poker player doesn't matter. Also I voted for you LONG before you tried to influence others about SFS. You still haven't said how you're so sure he's town.

[jotheonah]

A similar philosophy applies to being the victim of a lynch.  While it does hurt to be the victim of a lynch, you can easily have an overall positive impact on the game as a lynch victim. 

This is something I've been thinking a lot about. I went into this game thinking "I'm not just town but VT, I'm totally expendable, so I'm just gonna say whatever cause I don't care about being lynched. But then when people started voting for me I defaulted to my OMG don't kill me mindset, which I guess is a pretty natural way to feel? Only, that mindset made more people think I was scum than anything else I'd done. So now that I've taken my cooldown time, I think I'm OK with being lynched if that's the way things are going to go.  After all, I already survived a whole game of Mafia and I'm currently playing in another one. All other things equal, I'd rather give the newer players a longer game.

One thing I'll say, being honest, is that I think the thing in this game I'm best at (or at least feel the most confident about) is defending myself, so I tend to jump into that. It's easy for me to pick apart other people's arguments. I did that all the time in high school debate and college philosophy courses and really loved doing it. But I'm just not as good at scumhunting or at constructing a good argument in the first place.  So I play to my strengths and it inevitably makes me look scummy.

[Glooble]

My opinion of Tables is that he is normally very active and insightful but real life/ the enormousness of this thread is keeping him from keeping the kind of notes he would like to. Why do you disagree with this assessment? It's likely you have a different perspective than I, so I'd like to hear.

I'd also be interested in hearing what you find suspicious about me.