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Author Topic: Post one you'd like to have back  (Read 7259 times)

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Axe Knight

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Post one you'd like to have back
« on: July 12, 2011, 11:46:03 am »
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There are the games we lose because we didn't get the draws we needed, or just got outplayed.  Then there are the games we lose because, well, we deserved to. 

Here's one of mine from lately:

My opponent and I had practically identical decks going into the 13th round.  We had cleared out the Cities, and I had just taken the last few Minions.  All eight Estates were left.  I should have considered the possibility, given that I used my Universities to run out the Minion (read: second) pile the previous turn, that the Cities would give enough buys to simply clean out the Estates, especially since we would probably be drawing our decks every turn.  So I clear out the Minions to give him the extra buys, and then buy a Gold(!?) of all things.  Even Universitying in some Embargoes to place on the Estates would have been better, since I would've drawn them anyway, and had plenty of actions.

Next turn, surely, enough, he takes eight Estates to win by...eight.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110709-221343-16c25571.html

I'd be interested to see other examples of epic black hole fails.
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tko

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 01:39:44 pm »
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This one still bothers me:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110629-035502-a2ef1448.html

Turn 14: Bishop 2 Silvers and make a double Province buy
Turn 15: Bishop a Province and make a double Province buy

Things appear to be going great... I think, if I just keep playing like this, I can't lose.

So I keep playing the same and on Turn 16 I auto-pilot

Turn 16: Bishop 2 Provinces, make a double Province buy.  Doah!
Had I Bishop'd a Bishop and made a double Province buy, I would have won.  Wish I could have that one back.
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ackack

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 03:19:02 pm »
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Turn 16: Bishop 2 Provinces, make a double Province buy.  Doah!
Had I Bishop'd a Bishop and made a double Province buy, I would have won.  Wish I could have that one back.

I don't see that that's true. Bishoping a Province is a net loss of a point, so you give up two points by Bishoping your two Provinces. Bishoping a Bishop nets you 3 points. The difference between those plays is 5 points; you lost by 7.

That said, Bishoping a Province generally strikes me as a bad idea. The main exception I see is if you're in a situation where you need to get all 8 Provinces ASAP and thus giving up a few points for speed is worthwhile. Definitely in the endgame it is unlikely to help.
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lefaiison

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 03:53:12 pm »
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Yeah, I don't think it was the double Bishop that cost him the game, it was the double Province buy (leaving 1 Province left) that cost him the game. 

Buying a Province + Gold, or Province + Duchy probably would have sealed the game.
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tko

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 03:58:17 pm »
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Turn 16: Bishop 2 Provinces, make a double Province buy.  Doah!
Had I Bishop'd a Bishop and made a double Province buy, I would have won.  Wish I could have that one back.
I don't see that that's true. Bishoping a Province is a net loss of a point, so you give up two points by Bishoping your two Provinces. Bishoping a Bishop nets you 3 points. The difference between those plays is 5 points; you lost by 7.
I didn't realize I would have still lost by 2... I would be able to sleep better now, except I realize I could have...
a. Bishop a Gold, buy Province/Dutchy...
  or
b. Bishop a Bishop, buy Province/Dutchy...
  or
c. Bishop a Gold, Bishop a Province, buy Province/Dutchy...
Either a, b, or c might have put me in a position to win.


Note I wrote the above reply prior to reading the post below:

Yeah, I don't think it was the double Bishop that cost him the game, it was the double Province buy (leaving 1 Province left) that cost him the game. 

Buying a Province + Gold, or Province + Duchy probably would have sealed the game.
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rrenaud

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 04:57:51 pm »
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Looking at the VP/money per turn graphs, it looks like you really are crushing the opp in money/turn passed turn 10.  If you just go for bishopping golds, it looks like you'll win in the long run, and so your opponent is really the one who should be a hurry to end the game.  You had inevitability on your side.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 06:00:35 pm »
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In this game I felt like I was in much better position, and about to get a crazy Horn of Plenty turn, but I got too greedy and left 2 piles empty with only a single Horn left.  We were tied 9-9, and as soon as my opponents turn started I realized all he had to do was buy the last Horn and a single Estate.  I crossed my fingers and hoped he would not have enough money, or wouldn't notice... but he did.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110625-114800-68af0d30.html

Superdad

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 01:55:51 pm »
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Bishoping a province is a great strategy that has it's place. You have to know when to use it.

The ideal situation is you get your deck down to Bishop/Province/3 treasures that add to $7. Every turn you bishop the province and buy a new one. The key component is how fast you can get the game to this state.

The strategy functions a bit like a turbo-remodel strategy (where you'd remodel your own provinces into provinces just to end the game quickly).

You are essentially gaining 5 points per turn, every single turn, while 100% guaranteeing that you gain 5 VP every turn afterwards, while accelerating the end of the game.

When to use this strategy:

In a province game, and
When you see the opponent open with a slow buy such as a potion, and
When there is a strong trasher (i.e. Chapel, Steward).

Straight-up bishops will trash this deck down, but will usually do it too slowly.

So say the board is something like Steward, Bishop, Loan (for example).

I would open Steward/Loan, trash my deck down. As soon as I can get $6, buy a gold (usually with steward) then Bishop right after. Then Clean my deck down to Bishop/Gold/Silver/Silver/Province as soon as I've bought my first province. Then I'm off to the races.

You put your opponent on a really quick clock with this strategy. The key is a fast trasher though. Don't try this just on bishop trashing alone. You'll end up speeding up your opponent just as quickly as you, but he'll likely win the race even going something like BM + support (with your trashing helping him).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 01:59:47 pm »
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One note about bishop becoming better with other trashing, which theory pointed out some time ago. It's actually good against your opponent's fast trashing - they won't get the benefit of your bishop, you will. If they went steward or chapel, you could likely skip your own and just go with bishops actually. I know this is true with chapel, not 100% on steward since it has other uses, but I imagine the principle applies.

Superdad

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 03:21:41 pm »
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Skipping the strong trasher will take you longer to set up the Bishop/Province/$7 five-card-deck though. The bishop deck may not get set up fast enough without takign the strong trasher itself. Especially if they see what you are doing and start sucking up provinces quickly to counter.
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lefaiison

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 06:09:19 pm »
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I actually prefer Bishop as an early-mid-game card, instead of an opening buy, but maybe that's just me.
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HockeyHippo

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 03:19:49 pm »
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I JUST played a game where I wish I could have had it back. When it comes up on council room I'll link it.

I had the lead, the end game was just about to begin. I played a double Bridge and instead of ending the game by three piling him I decided try to further improve my deck. He took the lead the next turn and three piled me. As soon as I finished my turn realized the mistake I made and painfully watched him not make that same mistake.
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HockeyHippo

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Axe Knight

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 04:49:54 pm »
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I saw that Chapel/Treasure Map is Level +4.  I thought it was a good idea to open with that.  Except, I trashed four Copper on my next turn.  I was hoping to use the remaining three to buy a Silver, except I had $2 on the next eight(!) turns.  Thankfully, there's a resign button.

The probability of me actually drawing three copper on almost every turn after that is only 5C2/8C5 (approximately 18%),  I'd expect to need 6 +/- 5 turns to actually get that Silver.  I'm thinking if you open Chapel/Treasure Map, you're better off Chapelling your entire hand only if you have Estates in it...
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2011, 02:24:28 am »
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Just had a $10 hand. Tossing up between my first Gold or first Province. My hand took control of the situation and bought an Estate. I lost by 5 points.  >:(
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guided

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2011, 09:25:36 am »
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http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111006-191616-967eccda.html

On my last turn, I had $43 and 19 buys with a 20-point deficit. I stared and stared and stared at the board trying to think of some way to win it right there - apologizing for taking so long, but he was congenial and accommodating about it - knowing there was probably about a 50/50 shot that giving my opponent another turn would give him the game.

I was $5 short of emptying the entire Province pile, so no-go there. I was $2 short of buying out the whole Estate pile, the last King's Court, and 2 Colonies, so no-go there either. $4 short of buying all the Duchies and the KC. "Why oh why didn't I take a minuscule risk to Vault more cards rather than clinging to a KC and a GM in hand???" I thought. Finally I gave up and chose a holding pattern, since there was at least a good chance he wouldn't be able to end the game, and given one more turn with more Markets I certainly would win. Of course he drew flawlessly and did end the game. C'est la vie, I did all I could.

I got up from the desk to get a drink of water, and it dawned on me as I was pouring: you know, that Estate pile is worth some points, like enough that you don't need 2 Colonies to make up a 20-point deficit. All I had to do was buy 8 Estates, a KC, a Colony, and a Province for $40, securing a 4-point victory.

This is hardly the first time my blindness to Estate VPs has cost me a megaturn game, but it's probably the first time when I had explicitly considered the possibility of emptying the Estate pile :(
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Deadlock39

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2011, 10:19:14 am »
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http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110914-210520-d5dabf11.html

I knew I could finish off the last Islands and 2 Bridges to end the game.  My opponent had 7 Islands which accounted for a 12 point difference if I bought the last one.  With $12 I had enough for a Colony, the pile ending cards, and 3 spare buys for Estates.  I wasn't 100% sure what the situation was on Upgrading Estates for me or my opponent, so after buying the Colony and Island, I looked at the board and thought "hey cool, I have enough for a Duchy" and bought it.  I clicked on the first Bridge and bought it.  Then I clicked on the second Bridge and nothing happened...

My opponent snagged the last Bridge and a Province to win on the next turn. If I had followed though with my original plan, I would have won 17-16.

dan11295

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2011, 11:04:16 am »
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Had a game recently where a misread the board and bought a first turn Mint (generally a bad move anyways). resigned about 4 turns later.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2011, 01:13:53 pm »
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I'd like to take every loss back, every loss I've had has been due to blunders or misreading the board. In particular, I really seem to blunder in the middle of the game. I feel I often open really well, surge ahead in the early rounds, but as my opponent's engine gets its legs, I panic and steer astray.

Yeah, life as a noob means, you regret about half the games you play.
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Anon79

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2011, 10:16:38 pm »
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http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111006-191616-967eccda.html

On my last turn, I had $43 and 19 buys with a 20-point deficit. I stared and stared and stared at the board trying to think of some way to win it right there - apologizing for taking so long, but he was congenial and accommodating about it - knowing there was probably about a 50/50 shot that giving my opponent another turn would give him the game.

I was $5 short of emptying the entire Province pile, so no-go there. I was $2 short of buying out the whole Estate pile, the last King's Court, and 2 Colonies, so no-go there either. $4 short of buying all the Duchies and the KC. "Why oh why didn't I take a minuscule risk to Vault more cards rather than clinging to a KC and a GM in hand???" I thought. Finally I gave up and chose a holding pattern, since there was at least a good chance he wouldn't be able to end the game, and given one more turn with more Markets I certainly would win. Of course he drew flawlessly and did end the game. C'est la vie, I did all I could.

I got up from the desk to get a drink of water, and it dawned on me as I was pouring: you know, that Estate pile is worth some points, like enough that you don't need 2 Colonies to make up a 20-point deficit. All I had to do was buy 8 Estates, a KC, a Colony, and a Province for $40, securing a 4-point victory.

This is hardly the first time my blindness to Estate VPs has cost me a megaturn game, but it's probably the first time when I had explicitly considered the possibility of emptying the Estate pile :(
Probably not what you want to hear, but: 3 Colonies, King's Court, Estate, empty the Curse pile?
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guided

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2011, 11:04:43 pm »
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Probably not what you want to hear, but: 3 Colonies, King's Court, Estate, empty the Curse pile?
Not nearly as good as emptying the Estate pile and buying a Province and a Colony, but yes, that works too :P
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Anon79

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Re: Post one you'd like to have back
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2011, 03:17:58 am »
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The point is, there were two quite distinct ways of ending the game on a win, and you managed not to see either :P

Guess we all have days like that though. Just a couple of days ago I kept clicking "end turn" instead of buying the free Peddlers... kinda sux when the whole point of buying Pearl Divers was for Peddlers!
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