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Author Topic: Combo: Urchin + Torturer  (Read 8335 times)

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Robz888

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Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« on: May 11, 2013, 04:45:54 pm »
+9


Unfortunately for Dr. Zoidberg, Futurama's melancholic urchin just can't compete with the Urchin of Dominion: Dark Ages. In fact, Urchin the card is one of Torturer's best enablers.

A wise player once said that Torturer is a Young Witch whose Bane is the value of the worst two cards in your opponent's hand. That's a clever way of saying that your opponent does have a defense against your Torturer; if he doesn't need his two weakest cards, then a single play of the card isn't hurting him. Torturer needs to be chained or Throned to do serious damage, because unlike other discarders, it does still affect a three-card hand. To that end, Torturer works well with other discarders, provided you play them first. Use Militia to give your opponent a mandatory three-card hand, and then Torturer him, so that he is forced to accept a Curse or discard down to a hand of practically nothing. And as Donald X. once said, "Discarding five cards and passing is not the path to greatness."

Of the discard attacks that complement Torturer, none are as effective as Urchin. For one thing, Urchin is non-terminal, so it's much easier to play both cards. With Militia/Margrave/Followers/Goons, you would need a village of some sort to effectively use both cards.

At $3, it's also cheaper than the other options. Aside from Militia, the other discarders are priced competitively with Torturer, which may mean you simply end up purchasing multiple Torturers. But an Urchin costs as much as a Silver, and it won't get in the way of your Torturer chain as much, since it's a cantrip.

Urchin only knocks a single card out of your opponents deck, but if you are following up with Torturer, that one card is still a pain to lose. Now he has to contemplate dropping the next two out of his four-card hand, in order to block the Curse. The effect on your opponent is essentially the same as Torturer-Torturer, but a little easier to set up.

In addition to all this, Urchin is a card that actively wants you to play another attack card. Doing so yields a Mercenary! Among other things, Mercenary is a discard attack. Depending on your deck, you may wish to stick with the Urchin, but the trade-up isn't mandatory. If you have a deck with extra +action, or you need to do some light trashing, Mercenary can step in and accomplish these things, while still providing assistance to Torturer.

Now, Torturer is a terminal draw card, so you can run the risk of playing Torturer only to draw a bunch of Urchins and wish they were all Silvers. But lack of a tight, engine-y deck is usually a sign that Torturer wasn't the right move anyway. And if Torturer is the right move, you are going to want Urchin. Not Zoidberg, though. Nobody wants him.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2013, 05:34:00 pm »
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A couple things that might bear mentioning:
1. If your opponent also goes Torturer, and you have Mercenary, you can think about accepting Curses to trash them with Mercenary.
2. While Urchins don't compete at the price point with Torturer, they do compete with villages, so if you're thinking about making a Torturer engine, where/how do you balance villages with Urchins?
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Robz888

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 06:16:43 pm »
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You definitely need to prioritize villages for the chain... but you should think of Urchin as a cheap, mini-second Torturer, I think.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 04:02:42 am »
+1

Quote
A wise player once said that Torturer is a Young Witch whose Bane is the value of the worst two cards in your opponent's hand.

That was me! :D
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dondon151

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 08:50:53 am »
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Torturer combos this way with all discard attacks.
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 11:30:27 am »
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But urchin is especially good because it is nonterminal and you can get mercenaries from it, which are also discard attacks (albeit terminal), and can also trash your incoming curses.
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Robz888

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 12:56:57 pm »
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Torturer combos this way with all discard attacks.

True, but Urchin is cheaper than other discard attacks, and non-terminal, and can gain you an additional discarding attack card. In a nutshell, that's what elevates it above the rest.
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dondon151

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 03:09:23 am »
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True, but Urchin is cheaper than other discard attacks, and non-terminal, and can gain you an additional discarding attack card. In a nutshell, that's what elevates it above the rest.

Militia and Ghost Ship are both better than Urchin in ways that are not negligible. My opinion is that Urchin is only strong because it narrows the possible strategy space in the kingdom; the combo counters itself, and so you have to go for it.
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Robz888

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 03:31:04 am »
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True, but Urchin is cheaper than other discard attacks, and non-terminal, and can gain you an additional discarding attack card. In a nutshell, that's what elevates it above the rest.

Militia and Ghost Ship are both better than Urchin in ways that are not negligible. My opinion is that Urchin is only strong because it narrows the possible strategy space in the kingdom; the combo counters itself, and so you have to go for it.

Of course they are better, but again, they are harder to execute in tandem with Torturer, in a non-trivial way. They require a village or village stand-in; Urchin does not. For the purpose of forcing your opponent to take Curses, Urchin accomplishes much the same thing as its rivals, more cheaply, and with greater ease.
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philosophyguy

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 11:12:09 am »
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I think the impact of Mercenary can't be overlooked. While Mercenary is useful for trashing curses gained in hand to Torturer, I think Mercenary actually makes Torturer even more brutal.

Mercenary forces the discard to 3. If played before a Torturer, then you're in curse-giving territory. If played after a Torturer chain (and the opponent has taken some curses), then the opponent is faced with the worst-case scenario of having taken curses and having to discard them so they can't be trashed (unless he/she draws the whole deck).

If there are villages around, I think Urchin->Mercenary + Torturer is going to be brutal.
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dondon151

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 11:13:56 am »
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Of course they are better, but again, they are harder to execute in tandem with Torturer, in a non-trivial way. They require a village or village stand-in; Urchin does not. For the purpose of forcing your opponent to take Curses, Urchin accomplishes much the same thing as its rivals, more cheaply, and with greater ease.

I wasn't saying that they are unequivocally better than Urchin. Certainly, I recognize Urchin's strengths, but Ghost Ship makes Torturer chains much more painful and Militia is better at hitting $5 and/or preventing your opponent from hitting $5. The cost difference, at least between Militia and Urchin, is not important because you shouldn't be picking up more than one Militia as an opening anyway.
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 11:27:52 am »
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I think the impact of Mercenary can't be overlooked. While Mercenary is useful for trashing curses gained in hand to Torturer, I think Mercenary actually makes Torturer even more brutal.

Mercenary forces the discard to 3. If played before a Torturer, then you're in curse-giving territory. If played after a Torturer chain (and the opponent has taken some curses), then the opponent is faced with the worst-case scenario of having taken curses and having to discard them so they can't be trashed (unless he/she draws the whole deck).

If there are villages around, I think Urchin->Mercenary + Torturer is going to be brutal.

On the other hand: if you have a mercenary yourself you'll gladly take curses after being forced to discard down to 3 so that you can play your own mercenary.
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 03:59:23 am »
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Of course they are better, but again, they are harder to execute in tandem with Torturer, in a non-trivial way. They require a village or village stand-in; Urchin does not. For the purpose of forcing your opponent to take Curses, Urchin accomplishes much the same thing as its rivals, more cheaply, and with greater ease.

I wasn't saying that they are unequivocally better than Urchin. Certainly, I recognize Urchin's strengths, but Ghost Ship makes Torturer chains much more painful and Militia is better at hitting $5 and/or preventing your opponent from hitting $5. The cost difference, at least between Militia and Urchin, is not important because you shouldn't be picking up more than one Militia as an opening anyway.

But, at $5 Ghost Ship competes with Torturer.
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 04:00:48 am »
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But, at $5 Ghost Ship competes with Torturer.

Or rather, Torturer competes with Ghost Ship.
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 12:49:25 am »
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Awww man, my meme is gone. What meme site do you people use?
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 04:04:12 am »
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Awww man, my meme is gone.
But it's still there. Or did you re-upload it already?
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2013, 11:25:18 am »
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Awww man, my meme is gone.
But it's still there. Or did you re-upload it already?

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lespeutere

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2013, 11:59:07 am »
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Awww man, my meme is gone.
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Still up for me, too.
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2013, 04:03:32 pm »
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Awww man, my meme is gone.
But it's still there. Or did you re-upload it already?

Oh really? It shows up broken for me. Huh.
It was there on my sister's computer, it's a mac with Chrome, but now on my own computer with Windows and Opera, it's gone for me, too. Weird.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 10:08:40 pm »
+1

Well, it's a good thing I read this...  I just played a game with them (and I won)...  Also, the best part about that game:

"I play an Upgrade, trashing a Squire, gaining a Torturer (from trashing the Squire) and an Urchin (from the Upgrade)."
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 10:20:44 pm »
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Awww man, my meme is gone.
But it's still there. Or did you re-upload it already?

Oh really? It shows up broken for me. Huh.
Broken on mobile too (at least Safari)
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Re: Combo: Urchin + Torturer
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 01:26:08 am »
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Awww man, my meme is gone.
But it's still there. Or did you re-upload it already?

Oh really? It shows up broken for me. Huh.
It was there on my sister's computer, it's a mac with Chrome, but now on my own computer with Windows and Opera, it's gone for me, too. Weird.

I took a look at the page code. The URL for the image* is definitely not working anymore, currently serving a custom (HTML) 404 error page. People who are still seeing it probably have a local cached copy in their browser.

*For the curious: http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37738390.jpg
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