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Author Topic: Worst First Kingdom  (Read 11150 times)

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rinkworks

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Worst First Kingdom
« on: May 29, 2012, 03:59:23 pm »
+4

I was teaching a new player how to play Dominion the other day, and because he was an experienced game-player, I felt like the first game could be a little more involved than the standard first game, which only has very simple cards and only the core concepts.  It went well, but it occurred to me that even with an experienced player, I could have completely sabotaged his interest in the game by starting him off wrong.

The question I asked myself is, what's the worst possible kingdom to play when you're introducing someone new to the game?  It's almost comical what I came up with, and maybe it can be improved (worsened) still further.

My goal was to increase the following as much as possible:

(1) Concepts.  Good first kingdoms only introduce some of the core concepts, like +actions, +buys, attacking, and maybe trashing (Chapel) or filtering (Cellar/Warehouse).  But there are other concepts too, like durations, victory tokens, banes, and so forth.  So let's include as many of these as we can -- the more challenging to grasp, the better.

(2) Complicated cards.  Smithy is an easy card, as it just does one simple thing.  But I remember playing with Bishop several games before I stopped forgetting individual things that it did.

(3) Grueling cards.  Witch is easy to learn, but it's tough for a new player to get anywhere if he hasn't yet learned how to endure receiving a barrage of curses.

With those goals in mind, here's what I got:

Black Market - Introduces the strange Black Market deck concept, plus the abnormality of buying cards during your action phase.  Hilariously, requires a new player to understand up to all of other possible kingdom cards.

Trade Route - Puts tokens on certain kingdom piles, which is a weird concept.  Trashing.  Monetary value changes over the course of the game.

Young Witch - Grueling attack.  Adds a card to the kingdom.  Introduces bane concept, which adds a power onto another card that a new player hasn't even experienced normally yet.

Tournament - Complicated card with interactions for all players.  Requires familiarization with the five prize cards.  Among them are: (1) Trust Steed, an analysis paralysis card; (2) Followers, a grueling attack; (3) Princess, with price reduction leading to complicated buy phase figuring in non-computer games; (4) a non-base treasure card.

Governor - Lots of options and lots of ramifications to each option mean analysis paralysis.

Saboteur - The attack is grueling, psychologically so even when it's a poor strategic choice.  It's also somewhat complicated, particularly with price-changing effects in play.

King's Court - Makes everything more complicated.  Also, when combined with duration cards (below), special rules about when it stays out.

Outpost - Introduces duration cards.  The main reason for including this is because, when combined with King's Court and/or Possession, it can be a nightmare to untangle the rules about when extra turns happen and when you draw three cards during clean-up instead of five.

Native Village - We need a village to provide for the possibility of long, complicated turns that are hard to account for, especially when used with King's Court.  Of the villages, this one is the most exotic, being somewhat complicated, including a decision, introducing a mat concept, and being difficult to intuit how best to play.

Goons - Complicated card.  Victory token concept.  Somewhat grueling attack.  Introduces the idea of "while in play" clauses not being repeated by Throne Room and King's Court.

Possession - Introduces potion concept.  Complicated card.  Grueling interaction, especially with King's Court.

Is it safe to say that if this was your first kingdom, you'd never have played a second game of Dominion?
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jsh357

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2012, 04:06:16 pm »
0

I played a few games with a new player the other day, and I can confirm a few of these for sure.  Others I have hunches about.

Apothecary - It does a lot of things in a particular order and causes lots of shuffling
Pawn - the AP is even worse with a new player
Golem - The "set aside" mechanic seems to be the most universally difficult thing to drill into people's heads.  Same applies to Apo, but it's worse with Golem.
Chapel - Save the concept for a later game
Torturer + any Village - Frustrating for anyone, definitely for a first player
Horn of Plenty
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eHalcyon

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 04:09:33 pm »
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Ironworks is fairly complicated because of the different bonuses.  It also looks really awesome to new players, who think it's amazing value because you can Ironworks ALL the things.
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popsofctown

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 04:19:23 pm »
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I've played 1000+ games and I'm 100% sure I'm still in that phase.
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def

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 04:30:03 pm »
+3

Hm. You asked for the worst kingdom, which means 10 cards and their interactions, but give reasons for single cards to be included.
So I'll try and mention some awful themes of kingdoms or at least 2+-card-combos.

Number 1: "This is a singleplayer game": KC-Goons-Masquerade pin in some variation
Slight variation: Number 1a: "I'll play for both of us": KC-Possession madness

Number 2: "The game ends when I buy everything": I just don't find the log.  Edit: Found the log. Anyway, you probably all know the sologame approach where Geronimoo bought all cards available within 12 turns. Nice because it introduces the 20-pile-ending as well.

Number 3: "What do you mean, you can't buy anything?": This needs some preparation. Explain first how trashing is key in most games, and that you want to get rid of your starting cards as soon as possible. Then propose a game with Mint, Chapel and no useful 2$ cards + maybe Sea Hag or IGG. Your opponent hopefully opens Mint, maybe even Mint/Chapel, and you just add some Curses to his deck as well.

Number 4: "What do you mean, you can't shuffle this anymore?": Your opponent probably won't value Ambassador, so no boring tennis games should be expected. But, with ambassador, KC, one card to draw them all and many mostly useless cards, you can get to an engine first and afterwards pump his deck with Curses, Coppers, Potions, Scouts, Talismans, what you can think of. Make sure to leave the last card in most piles so the fun doesn't end early.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 05:05:20 pm by def »
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werothegreat

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 04:42:47 pm »
0

Secret Chamber, and lots of Attacks.  Any Attacks.  Really, Secret Chamber is the key here.
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Robz888

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 04:57:32 pm »
+1

Maybe this should include Ironworks and Trader. So confusing, not even we understand it!
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 05:43:38 pm »
0

Secret Chamber, and lots of Attacks.  Any Attacks.  Really, Secret Chamber is the key here.
But for added bonus points: Secret Chamber and Minion. The analysis paralysis there can be hilarious.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2012, 06:23:05 pm »
+1

I looked at that kingdom and a pang of guilt hit me for trying to introduce dominion using Alchemy and Cornucopia. It was not pretty.
Maybe add Ambassador as the bane?
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WrathOfGlod

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2012, 06:28:15 pm »
0

There has to be room for torturer here somewhere
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Tdog

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 07:12:20 pm »
0

Torturer, Ironworks, Village, Throne room, King's court. Then pull a massive Torturer engine fueled by the ironworks that makes them quit the game forever.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 07:26:27 pm »
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Torturer, Ironworks, Village, Throne room, King's court. Then pull a massive Torturer engine fueled by the ironworks that makes them quit the game forever.
Maybe add a Village and Bridge or Highway so you can Ironworks Torturers.
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toaster

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 07:59:32 pm »
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On the flip side, I wonder about the opposite question: what kingdom would result in the smallest skill gap while avoiding any complicated or frustrating cards?  Such a set would ease new players into the game while minimizing the feeling that you're totally crushing them.
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ftl

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 08:22:36 pm »
0

That's pretty hard. In a big money kingdom, a newbie would get distracted by shiny actions and lose. In an engine kingdom, a newbie would play things wrong.

It would have to be the sort of kingdom where "get the most expensive thing you can afford" is usually the right answer.

It actually wouldn't be a good introductory kingdom; because the only way I can see to minimize the skill gap is to avoid lots of parts of Dominion. Like, so that a newbie doesn't end up as a village idiot, you have to have a kingdom with no villages.
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toaster

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2012, 08:31:18 pm »
0

I think a "hard to go wrong" engine set up might be the solution here...with cards like Fishing Village, Worker's Village, Smithy, Courtyard, and Workshop....maybe Gardens as well for interest. 

I would still expect the experienced player to win, but something like that increases the chances of a new player building a deck that "works", instead of winding up in terminal draw hell (that's for game two :P).

(Oh, and I realize Courtyard in a draw engine is wrong, but it's an interesting and approachable card that easily slides into the $2 slot).
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Piemaster

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2012, 02:16:54 am »
0

I think the worst board to introduce a newbie with might not be one with the most complicated cards but one that is completely sterile of any interesting combos or interaction.  You know, the kind of board that comes up on Iso and you straight away think "soooo... big money then".  Probably devoid of any +Action (except for maybe a couple of dull cantrips) or +Buy that will spectacularly fair to demonstrate the full scope of the game.  Something like:

Adventurer
Outpost
Smithy
Island
Scout
Watchtower
Wishing Well
Smugglers
Chapel
Duchess
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2012, 03:21:26 am »
+1

I would put Trade Route and Young Witch in the BM deck so that the extra setup still happens but the reason for it isn't as clear.  My two replacements:

Jack of All Trades - You have to do a lot of things at once, including make two different decisions.

Torturer - Another decision card that confuses and frustrates even experienced players, plus it lets you draw cards for engines and hands out curses.

or:

Masquerade - Brutal when combined with Torturer, plus adds decisions and a new concept of passing.

Of course, now the question becomes, do even non-beginners want to play a board like this?  :P
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 03:23:27 am by yudantaiteki »
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Asklepios

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 04:22:10 am »
+1

Number 2: "The game ends when I buy everything": I just don't find the log.  Edit: Found the log. Anyway, you probably all know the sologame approach where Geronimoo bought all cards available within 12 turns. Nice because it introduces the 20-pile-ending as well.

A little off topic, but I'd never seen this log before, and would like to thank you for linking it.

That is a thing of beauty.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2012, 07:55:02 pm »
0

Cards/situations which don't give a good idea of the game
->Tournament
->Bridge/Highway/Quarry/Peddler (cost of cards keep moving !)
->Young witch ("Does Dominion play with 10 or 11 stacks ?")
->Goons/Bishop/Monument ("wait, you can gain victory points without buying cards ?" no...
->Black Market (this one is the first !)
->Throne room/KC
->No villages and many terminals (Only one action per turn)
->Duration cards
->Ambassador and masquerade, maybe (but I could complete the list for long...)

Frustrations :
->Massive torturer rush (of course !)
->Possession (one single is enough !)
->Ghost ship/Militia/Goons-masquerade (loool)
->Ghost ship multiple attacks (scary !!!)
->Minions (oh nooo, just when I had a good $5 cards)
->Throne room/KC-Feast/Embargo
->Saboteur, why not ?

Cards that "look useful but aren't (or not as much as expected)"
->Coppersmith (they believe coppers are good, and they would be so wrooong !)
->counting house (same !)
->Thief
->Outpost (waaait, this card is not so useful as it looks like)

Cards and situations you probably don't master at once :
->Chapel/steward/trashing...
->laboratory
->Gardens, Duke, and their respective strategies
->Potions games...
->Tunnels
->Grand markets, and how to reach them

Just make a mix of them, and you will have something very awful. I think to :
Swindler, Gardens, Caravan, Coppersmith, Saboteur, Torturer, Trading Post, Tactician, Possession, King's Court
(+ Potions, Platinums, Colonies)
6 cards costing more than $5, Tactician which looks the weirdest (according to me) reaction card ; KC-Torturer/Saboteur... ; Trading post as single trashing option ; Coppersmith
And by the way, the ways to reach several actions are : tactician ; King's court + caravan (good luck, have fun !!!) or King's court² (what else ?)

What about discovering Dominion with this board ? "Yes, this is a very interesting and well-balanced game, easy to understand"
Of course, some are missing too. I should give other boards, including Hoard, Pirate Ship, Mountebank, and... well, I don't know ! I will come back later !
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PSGarak

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2012, 12:01:11 am »
+1

I think a good bad first game would be one filled with opportunities for rookie mistakes. Most of the kingdoms I've seen posted are too obvious: no interactions, no actions, lots of attacks. These games maximize pain and insufferable length, but even a noob could see that going in. I intend to trick them. I think it would be much more frustrating to try building a fantastic edifice of interactions and combos, that ends up doing nothing and getting wrecked by BMU. I want a kingdom that lets you build an engine, but doesn't let you do anything with that engine.

Villages are perfect for this exercise, since they're the classic noob-trap. One thing I think is important for making sure the villages stay useless, is a lack of card draw. I'll let in a few +1's, but nothing more than that.

Another common rookie mistake is +buy: you don't want to waste it, so you end up buying spare copper, or even worse, two villages instead of a gold. On a related note, workshop is a must. $3 for a card that gets you free $4's sounds really good when you don't know what you're doing and have not been introduced to our good friend, Mr. Silver.

And that brings me to my final ingredient: Decent-looking $3's to tempt away from silver, and decent-looking $2's that combine with +buy to tempt away from $4 and $5-costed actions. So, here goes:

 ~ Hamlet (extra frustration for having to discard cards)
 ~ Pawn (bonus points for analysis paralysis)
 ~ Herbalist ($2 copper, +buy, and anti-cycling)
 ~ Village (classic)
 ~ Workshop (looks better on paper)
 ~ Worker's village (overpriced village, and +buy)
 ~ Baron (a decent starting card that tapers off quickly, gives +buy, and may tempt into buying estates)
 ~ Feast (cf. workshop)
 ~ Festival (decent card in general, will end up being an overpriced silver with +buy)
 ~ Saboteur (no comment)

I'm tempted to add Chapel, to give the expert player something to do that the noob player won't touch.

I would consider swapping the Feast for a University. Feast makes a cute target for Workshop, but University means Potion.

I'm tempted to add Goons, as an unobtainable holy grail that the noob drools over, but remains forever out of reach as they get stuck in the villagenous morass of their own creation. And then that holy grail turns into their crown of thorns, as they get hammered with it repeatedly, and finally losing by 60 points. If goons is present, it would have to substitute Baron, because Baron gives the best chance of accidentally hitting $6.
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Jfrisch

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2012, 01:18:42 am »
0

I don't think villages are actually harmful to have in a noob kingdom. The beginner will (invariably) overbuy actions and village allows them to compensate. Overbuying villages is a third game problem, not a first game one. mean attacks (cursers/ghost ship/sab/torturer chains/minion) cards that will cause confusion (posession/bridge/contraband/(ironworks with several other cards present) and a wide variety of traps (coppersmith/workshop/thief/counting house) would be sufficient to make the game painful. Basically mean attacks/pins and confusion should be enough to make dominion a miserable game.
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Grujah

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2012, 06:12:16 am »
0

Off-Topic:
ChochophileBenj - "while (true) {...}" doesn't crash a program, it only makes it loop indefinitely, which may or may not be a good thing. Better example would be something like "x /= 0".
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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2012, 06:58:32 am »
0

Keeping track of your actions can be very annoying.

Just include some Fishing Villages, Throne Rooms and King's Courts. Then you even have to explain which cards get left out there with the Duration cards and which you can put in your discard.

Whenever I play a game like that in real life, sometimes I don't even keep precise track if I have a few terminals. Often I just go: "Well, I'm sure I have enough actions to play this."

Including both Council Room / Governor and a forced discarder like Goons can be fun. "Here, you can grab a card", "Sweet!", "...but you have to discard down to 3 again", "Damn you!"
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Jorbles

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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2012, 01:22:09 am »
0

I just played this kingdom and whoo boy would it be bad for a first time player:
Conspirator, Harvest, Margrave, Masquerade, Merchant Ship, Moneylender, Possession, Potion, Scrying Pool, Secret Chamber, and Tunnel
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/05/game-20120705-221345-ea8fdee9.html

Possession and Scrying Pool are bad enough, but it's also got everything else that's confusing for a new player: trash for benefit, discard for benefit, a duration card, two reaction cards, Potions, cantrips with finicky rules, and to top it all off Masquerade on a board where players are going to get possessed a lot. I think it is safe to say my opponent did not enjoy himself, and a new player would walk away from the game vowing to never play again.
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Re: Worst First Kingdom
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2012, 01:22:01 am »
0

I'll probably change my mind a couple times, but this is what I'd come up with for this list. Notice that a LOT of these cards are from Intrigue--potentially brutal attacks + choices = unfun games for noobs.

1. Secret Chamber. "Oh neat, it does something for me when I'm attacked? Cool, better get one of these. Wait, its reaction sucks? Crap."

2. Embargo. "Wait, I get a curse just for buying this card? WTF?"

3. Pawn. Just to mess with their heads. =]

4. Wishing Well. "How come I never guess right?"

5. Bridge. "Nobody told me this was a math game!"

6. Mining Village. For you, it's a village. For the noob, it's a horrible AP. "I could get an extra $2, but do I really, really want to trash this card??" Etc.

7. Tournament. Just wait until they get a whiff of Trusty Steed + Followers AND find out that they won't be able to pick up either. And if they somehow land the prize..."Uh, what the heck do I do with this horse?"

8. Saboteur. This list just isn't complete without this card.

9. Torturer. Doesn't give the minimum-of-three-cards protection that Militia and Goons provide. Prepare for ragequit.

10. King's Court. KC-KC-Torturer-Sab-Sab = Ragequit in 3...2...1...


Oh, and did I mention it's a Colony-Platinum game?
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