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[greatexpectations]

Well I don't think you can look at the fact that there were only 15 points at the end as any indicator. There were only 15 points because I had the chance to 3-pile with a slight lead and took it. Both of us had decks capable of grabbing multiple Provinces per turn by that point.

that was a response to your question to WW about whether courtyard/BM might be better. i am not trying to say it was the better move.

and yeah, sure you can hit multiple province turns but it also took 17 turns to get to that point. courtyard/BM can probably hit 4 provinces and 2 duchies iin the time it took you to finally get around to buying provinces.

[dondon151]

I have a feeling that a Courtyard/BM player would get Marin'd on that board (i.e., slaughtered when up 5 Provinces).

[greatexpectations]

maybe, maybe not. 

there is no fast trashing. all of the key pieces for a mega-turn engine (grand market, city, rabble?, apprentice) are expensive. and without any help emptying piles for the city stack you are going to have a rough time of things.

as WW pointed out you can easily throw in an apprentice later in the game.  trash a province to ensure another one.  against a BM player a rabble chain would seem to be a necessity.  but that requires buying power and actions...see the trouble here?

im not going to say that courtyard/BM is for sure the best play.  but i think WW has a solid point.  grand market and city can be huge trap cards.  there is a reason he ranked so highly.  he is willing to play a simple and consistent strategy and let the opponent take a chance with a splendid engine that might take too long to fire properly. 

[WanderingWinder]

I have a feeling that a Courtyard/BM player would get Marin'd on that board (i.e., slaughtered when up 5 Provinces).

I'm a little bit worried about getting Marined. But not too much. I mean, BM player won't help you empty piles for city. Now, whoever said that courtyard BM will have all the provinces by then is crazy. It will be in the low to mid 20s of turns before that happens - without apprentices anyway. However... I do expect that BM player can get 6-7 provinces before engine player greens. The apprentice may well be really key here. But the big thing is, it will take you FOREVER to get your engine up, and the only way of slowing me down is... rabble. Actually, as BM player here, I may get a rabble myself on an opportune 5. Eh probably not. Anyway, apprentice is your only trashing, and what is your plan exactly? Build a city/rabble engine, then get GMs, then finish off the cities? How many cities and rabbles do you need for this engine to be effective?  Probably 3-4 of each. And then you'll want all the GMs, and then the cities... And you do need at least a LITTLE more money to get your GMs started. How long does this take you? Probably at least 20 turns. No, I'm serious. So you're spotting like a 6 province lead at least. Well, then you need to gobble up like all the SR, most all the duchies, and at the very least one province, and then most of the estates, without letting a pile run out, or having your engine get too bogged down (I'm assuming apprentices aren't really going to be worth it for you). A savvy opponent ought to be able to block you. Ok, you should probably supplement at some point with courtyards, but then you're losing a lot of your back-end leverage (as opposed to the rabbles). I mean, it's possible, I just don't think it can be a favourite. Oh, and keep in mind how long it will take you to buy all that green. You don't have all that much cash....

[dondon151]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/25/game-20120525-171900-c1d1e084.html

Definitely mediocre as far as speed goes, but it is definitely easy to get tons and tons of money once it gets going, the VPs just explode, and I probably played this suboptimally Courtyard/BM is definitely the right move if you're looking just to win by getting 43 VP, but if you don't manage to get all 8 Provinces within 21 turns or so, you're looking to get crushed...

[WanderingWinder]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/25/game-20120525-171900-c1d1e084.html

Definitely mediocre as far as speed goes, but it is definitely easy to get tons and tons of money once it gets going, the VPs just explode, and I probably played this suboptimally Courtyard/BM is definitely the right move if you're looking just to win by getting 43 VP, but if you don't manage to get all 8 Provinces within 21 turns or so, you're looking to get crushed...

A couple things. One, you can't win by getting 43 VPs, because silk road is out - this means BM player should always prioritize SR over duchy - it MAY mean one fewer point for him, but it's at LEAST one fewer for engine player, probably more... Two, how repeatable is this? Because if you can do this well every time, it is probably winning most of the time. But if this is a particularly good draw, then I still expect courtyard/BM to prevail (also the apprentice does not seem to help so much...)

[GendoIkari]

Ok, what the heck are the odds of this one? Twice in 3 turns, I buy a Goons and it is Swindled away the very next turn. No other Goons in the deck.

— GendoIkari's turn 6 —
GendoIkari plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
GendoIkari buys a Goons.
(GendoIkari reshuffles.)
(GendoIkari draws: a Jack of All Trades, 3 Estates, and a Copper.)

   — DCH's turn 6 —
   DCH plays a Swindler.
   ... getting +$2.
   ... GendoIkari turns up a Goons and trashes it.
   ... replacing GendoIkari's Goons with a Gold.
   DCH plays 2 Coppers.
   DCH buys a Silver.
   (DCH reshuffles.)
   (DCH draws: 4 Coppers and a Potion.)

— GendoIkari's turn 8 —
GendoIkari plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
GendoIkari buys a Goons.
(GendoIkari reshuffles.)
(GendoIkari draws: 2 Silvers, a Curse, and 2 Coppers.)

   — DCH's turn 8 —
   DCH plays a Swindler.
   ... getting +$2.
   ... GendoIkari turns up a Goons and trashes it.
   ... replacing GendoIkari's Goons with a Gold.
   DCH plays 2 Coppers.
   DCH buys a Silver.
   (DCH draws: a Silver, a Transmute, a Copper, a Potion, and an Estate.)

[dondon151]

A couple things. One, you can't win by getting 43 VPs, because silk road is out - this means BM player should always prioritize SR over duchy - it MAY mean one fewer point for him, but it's at LEAST one fewer for engine player, probably more...

Yeah, I know; I meant that if this was a game with no alt VPs, Courtyard-BM can probably get to 43 VPs in 20 turns pretty easily. That's like, 6 Provinces, a Duchy, and an Estate on top of the 3 starting Estates.

Two, how repeatable is this? Because if you can do this well every time, it is probably winning most of the time. But if this is a particularly good draw, then I still expect courtyard/BM to prevail (also the apprentice does not seem to help so much...)

I was getting 20-22 turns to finish the game.

[WanderingWinder]

Just had a colony game where my two remakes had the chance to trash an estate... a total of once, about ten or fifteen turns in. Not a particularly fast game either. (And I didn't even take the estate trash then...)