Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Davio]

This 'combo' has me confused.

Inn's text says:

When you gain this, look through your discard pile (including this), reveal any number of Action cards from it, and shuffle them into your deck.

Stash's text says:

When you shuffle, you may put this anywhere in your deck.

But the Stashes don't activate on Inn shuffles on Isotropic.

I've looked in the Hinterlands rules, but there's nothing about Inn with different cards. Isotropic's ruling is probably right, but why? The Stashes don't specify what kind of 'shuffle' it has to be, just that you can do it when you shuffle.

[DStu]

But the Stashes don't activate on Inn shuffles on Isotropic.

Given there are Stashes in the draw pile, do the positions of the Stashes change? Or may you position them.

From my understanding, every Stash that is about to get shuffled can be placed anywhere in the drawpile afterwards. Stashes that don't can't obviously. Otherwise you could take the 10 from the supply, or the ones from your opponent and place them in your drawpile.

edit: ok just tested, Stashes in the drawpile also get randomly shuffled, and you can't place them when you shuffle because of Inn. I can imagine that to be a bug, but maybe someone wants to convince me of the opposite?

[Grujah]

But the Stashes don't activate on Inn shuffles on Isotropic.

Given there are Stashes in the draw pile, do the positions of the Stashes change? Or may you position them.

They change.

[WanderingWinder]

But the Stashes don't activate on Inn shuffles on Isotropic.

Given there are Stashes in the draw pile, do the positions of the Stashes change? Or may you position them.

They change.

Why?

[DStu]

Why?

Because dougz told the server they should.

[WanderingWinder]

Why?

Because dougz told the server they should.

Yeah, but why'd he do that?

[DStu]

Yeah, but why'd he do that?

Probably he didn't do that, he just didn't tell the server that it shouldn't.

Inn calls another method than the usual reshuffle, Stash is only hooked into the traditional one, new method doesn't know about Stash, so it gets shuffled like every other card.

[GendoIkari]

I'm pretty sure that's an Iso bug. As for Stashes that are in your discard, I think they have to stay in your discard. I think it's implied/assumed that "When you shuffle, you may put this anywhere in your deck." is assuming that it was in your deck that you were shuffling to begin with. But if it was in your draw pile, you should definitely be allowed to put it anywhere when you shuffle from Inn.

[Voltgloss]

Intriguing question.  Anyone have the Stash rulesheet handy to see if this is covered?

[DsnowMan]

The rules sheet on bgg says
"Whenever you shuffle your deck, you can choose where in your deck each copy of Stash that you have goes."

I'd liberally read this as whenever you use Inn, you can take all your Stashes (deck & discard) and place them where you like. But I doubt this was the intention...

[DStu]

Naa, you don't really "shuffle your deck" when you use Inn, or? You shuffle your draw pile. So maybe isotropic's implementation is even correct?

But on the other hand, it would be a bit hard to really enforce unbiased shuffling of cards with distinct backs IRL.

[Grujah]

Well, you can shuffle with eyes closed..
The faq/rulesheet says when you shuffle your deck, but card itself only says "When you shuffle" only Which takes precedence?

And on that different back thing, I find that it would be may more cool if the card was actually double-fronted (i.e. stash on both sides). 

[AJD]

Well, you can shuffle with eyes closed..
The faq/rulesheet says when you shuffle your deck, but card itself only says "When you shuffle.." Which takes precedence?

Well in that case, Inn is the only time you shuffle your deck. All other shuffling is of your discard pile!

[Grujah]

Nope, with Inn you shuffle your draw pile. Deck = draw pile + discard pile.

[AJD]

Nope, with Inn you shuffle your draw pile. Deck = draw pile + discard pile.

Not so! Hence all the rules along the lines of "If there are not enough cards in his Deck, he draws as many as he can and shuffles the Discard pile to form a new Deck"—in the rules, "Deck" just means the draw pile until the end of the game.

[Voltgloss]

Nope, with Inn you shuffle your draw pile. Deck = draw pile + discard pile.

Nope, they're separate - AJD is correct.  Deck and discard pile are two discrete sets.  Take a look at the Dominion rulebook, bottom of page 5.  Also take a look at Philosopher's Stone ("When you play this, count your deck and discard pile."  Deck and Discard Pile are two different things.)  So seems to me you should at least get to reposition Stashes currently in your deck when you shuffle the deck upon playing Inn. 

The rules sheet on bgg says
"Whenever you shuffle your deck, you can choose where in your deck each copy of Stash that you have goes."

I'd liberally read this as whenever you use Inn, you can take all your Stashes (deck & discard) and place them where you like. But I doubt this was the intention...

The uncertainty is whether the phrase "each copy of Stash that you have" means "each copy of Stash that you have in your Deck."  Man, if it doesn't, you could have the even more mindbending scenario of Stashes getting reshuffled into your Deck directly from play.  You don't even need Inn (or Black Market) to do this.  Consider:

- Your hand is 4 Ventures and a Stash.  No other treasure in your deck or discard pile.
- You play Stash, then Venture.  Your Venture digs through your deck and finds nothing, triggering a reshuffle.  But hey, you have a Stash!  It's right there on the table!  And you're shuffling your deck!  So you get to pick where the Stash goes in your deck!  And the Venture hits it.  Hooray!
- Now you play your next Venture.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  And then again.  And again one more time. 

That's wringing $10 out of a single Stash in a single turn.  This just can't be right. 

[ehunt]

Two separate issues:

1. Should you get to rearrange stashes currently in the draw pile when you buy an inn?

Answer: yes.

2. Should you get to rearrange stashes currently in the discard pile when an inn forces you to shuffle?

Answer: surely no, for the same reason that you shouldn't be able to island a stash and then shuffle it back in.

[Donald X.]

This 'combo' has me confused.

Inn's text says:

When you gain this, look through your discard pile (including this), reveal any number of Action cards from it, and shuffle them into your deck.

Stash's text says:

When you shuffle, you may put this anywhere in your deck.

But the Stashes don't activate on Inn shuffles on Isotropic.

I've looked in the Hinterlands rules, but there's nothing about Inn with different cards. Isotropic's ruling is probably right, but why? The Stashes don't specify what kind of 'shuffle' it has to be, just that you can do it when you shuffle.

It's a bug.

The text on Stash is rules text, but also, it's verifying that you're not cheating by doing something you can already do, rules text or not; the backs of Stashes are marked, so of course when you shuffle for Inn you will be able to put those Stashes where you want them. And phew, the front says this is okay.

You can only choose the position of Stashes that you're already shuffling, don't be silly guys.

Stash is a Treasure that produces 2 coins when played, like Silver. Whenever you shuffle your deck, you can choose where in your deck each copy of Stash that you have in your deck goes. You can't look at the fronts of the other cards in your deck to see where to put it; Stash itself has a different card back, so that's how you'll know where it is. If you have multiple copies of Stash, you can clump them together or spread them out or whatever you want. Since Stash has a different card back, you will also know if it's in a player's hand, or set aside for someone's Haven (from Dominion: Seaside), and so on. You only get to pick where Stashes that you're shuffling go; you don't get to move Stashes from other places to your deck when shuffling. If you have to draw some cards, and are able to draw at least one, but then have to shuffle to get the rest, you will get to look at the cards you already drew before deciding where to put Stash.

[Brando Commando]

Well, Donald X. has nicely cleared that up.

But the following is now bugging me:

It occurs to me that in Isotropic, we really ought to be shown whether or not there is a Stash-backed card on the top of our own or opponents' decks, since this is something that is a) actually significant and b) something we would know in an IRL game.

Same goes for opponents' hands.
 
Am I missing something, or is this a (relatively) big oversight in Isotropic?

EDIT: It looks like my question has been answered...arrrggghh and I thought I had found something noteworthy.

Sorry if this was hit on in another thread already...

[michaeljb]

I'm pretty sure you can see that stuff about opponent's Stashes if you hit the 'info' button.

[Dominionaer]

Yes, when the top of draw-pile is a stash, then the right end of draw pile bar is yellow.

[Kahryl]

As a general rule, if it would make Stash useful, it's a bug.