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Author Topic: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway  (Read 6201 times)

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philosophyguy

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Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« on: May 24, 2012, 02:59:50 pm »
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I'm trying to understand why Bridge and Highway don't have their values switched.

One is a cantrip that reduces costs by one but can't be stacked via TR/KC.
One is a terminal that reduces costs by one, gives you an extra buy to increase the impact of the cost reduction, and allows both of those effects to be stacked via TR/KC.

Is the fact that Highway is a cantrip enough to justify the extra value, given that the rest of the benefits so obviously weigh in favor of Bridge having the higher cost?
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DG

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2012, 03:06:30 pm »
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Quote
Is the fact that Highway is a cantrip enough to justify the extra value, given that the rest of the benefits so obviously weigh in favor of Bridge having the higher cost?

Laboratory, +2 cards, +1 action, cost 5.
Smithy +3 cards, cost 4.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 03:08:46 pm »
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In the context of mega turns:

Highway needs +buys (and a thin deck/engine to play all.)
Bridge needs +actions/+cards (to play enough bridges as well as enough actions to draw all the bridges OR king's court with a reasonable method to play enough bridges.)

Highways seem easier to create the megaturn unless there's KC/native village.  I think that's fair enough.  Also there are some combo/nombos with highways (ironworks/forge) that more often not balance out, although I personally think its combos are much better than nombos. 
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 03:11:06 pm »
+3

Is the fact that Highway is a cantrip enough to justify the extra value?

Yes.
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Jorbles

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 03:11:42 pm »
+1

Does it matter? It is what it is. The game works.
[/negativity]

Probably if Highway cost $4 it'd be too easy to acquire a critical mass of them at the beginning of the game and they'd dominate Kingdoms. You wouldn't need that initial Silver to get to them. Bridge limits itself as a terminal because you are forced to buy other cards if you want to play a bunch of Bridges in a single turn.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 03:27:07 pm »
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I'm trying to understand why Bridge and Highway don't have their values switched.

One is a cantrip that reduces costs by one but can't be stacked via TR/KC.
One is a terminal that reduces costs by one, gives you an extra buy to increase the impact of the cost reduction, and allows both of those effects to be stacked via TR/KC.

Is the fact that Highway is a cantrip enough to justify the extra value, given that the rest of the benefits so obviously weigh in favor of Bridge having the higher cost?
Yes.
Keep in mind that KC and TR do not come up in a lot of games, and that fairly often you only buy one thing. Thus, highway is largely a peddler, and bridge is largely a woodcutter. With some extra tricks.

GendoIkari

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 03:39:50 pm »
+1

+1 action turns a card into a completely different type of card. Check out Rinkwork's Fan Card Creation Guide for more on this.

For one thing, which hand would you rather draw, 5 Highways or 5 Bridges? That question alone says a lot. It means that you can't just buy Bridges. At some point, you are risking getting screwed with draws. You need Villages (or TR/KC) as well, and you need to carefully balance the amount of each to make sure you have enough actions to play those Bridges.

Then just look at all the other examples out there where being a non-terminal changes everything:

Laboratory vs Moat: the +1 action changes a $2 card to a $5 AND removes the reaction.
Laboratory vs Smithy: the +1 action changes a $4 to a $5 AND draws 1 less card.
Laboratory vs Wharf: the +1 action is worth +buy now and next turn AND +2 cards next turn.
Familiar vs Witch: the +1 action changes a $5 to a $3P AND draws 1 less card.
Woodcutter vs Festival: the +2 actions changes a $3 to a $5.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 01:14:51 am by GendoIkari »
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blueblimp

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 04:50:37 pm »
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If Peddler cost $4, it would be one of the best $4 cards, right? So Highway, which (in effect, not cost) is strictly better than Peddler, would be much too good at $4.
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Ferrouswheel

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 04:53:42 pm »
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+1 action turns a card into a completely different type of card. Check out Rinkwork's Fan Card Creation Guide for more on this.

For one thing, which hand would you rather draw, 5 Highways or 5 Bridges? That question alone says a lot. It means that you can't just buy Bridges. At some point, you are risking getting screwed with draws. You need Villages (or TR/KC) as well, and you need to carefully balance the amount of each to make sure you have enough actions to play those Bridges.

Then just look at all the other examples out there where being a non-terminal changes everything:

Laboratory vs Moat: the +1 action changes a $2 card to a $5 AND removes the reaction.
Laboratory vs Smithy: the +1 action changes a $4 to a $5 AND draws 1 less card.
Laboratory vs Wharf: the +1 action is worth +buy now and next turn AND +2 cards next turn.
Familiar vs Witch: the +1 action changes a $5 to a $2P AND draws 1 less card.
Woodcutter vs Festival: the +2 actions changes a $3 to a $5.

That should be $3P not $2P, sadly.
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popsofctown

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 05:38:45 pm »
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Highway definitely should be 5$.  +1 card, +1 action, +1$, +1 small perk is a 5$ thing that works well on Market and Treasury and whatnot.

I think Bridge should be 5$ too though.  It's a terminal Silver that has a relatively easy hoop to jump through to make it terminal Gold - you need to buy two cards.  To me that doesn't seem as difficult as Tribute, Harvest, or Mandarin make it to be terminal Gold.  And adding +buys allows you to get more value out of it, conditional terminal Gold is not the only trick Bridge knows.

At 5$ megaturn strategy would be more vulnerable to attacks, possibly meaning fewer mirrors.  I think that'd be interesting.
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O

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 06:00:34 pm »
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Bridge is certainly not an overpowered 4$.  Costing it at 5 sounds like a terrible idea.
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Ferrouswheel

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 06:12:06 pm »
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Bridge is certainly not an overpowered 4$.  Costing it at 5 sounds like a terrible idea.

Agreed, all it would do is stop some of the bridge strategies, like NV Bridge would be much worse.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2012, 01:15:23 am »
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+1 action turns a card into a completely different type of card. Check out Rinkwork's Fan Card Creation Guide for more on this.

For one thing, which hand would you rather draw, 5 Highways or 5 Bridges? That question alone says a lot. It means that you can't just buy Bridges. At some point, you are risking getting screwed with draws. You need Villages (or TR/KC) as well, and you need to carefully balance the amount of each to make sure you have enough actions to play those Bridges.

Then just look at all the other examples out there where being a non-terminal changes everything:

Laboratory vs Moat: the +1 action changes a $2 card to a $5 AND removes the reaction.
Laboratory vs Smithy: the +1 action changes a $4 to a $5 AND draws 1 less card.
Laboratory vs Wharf: the +1 action is worth +buy now and next turn AND +2 cards next turn.
Familiar vs Witch: the +1 action changes a $5 to a $2P AND draws 1 less card.
Woodcutter vs Festival: the +2 actions changes a $3 to a $5.

That should be $3P not $2P, sadly.

Oops, fixed!
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Asklepios

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2012, 04:01:15 am »
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I'd dispute that a $4 Highway is "strictly" better than a $4 average cost Peddler, because Peddler reverts to $8 value once in your deck (which has implications for trash for benefit) and because Peddler can cost a lot less. Also, TR/KC, etc...
Definitely a $4 Highway is probably better card than a Peddler in general, but the phrase "strictly better" should only be used when a card is strictly better in all circumstances.

Returning to topic though, I think the main problem with the $5 Highway is that there can be a lot of variation between when two players, playing the same silver/silver opening, can get their first Highway, and once you start getting Highways its much easier to get more of them. If you're playing Worker's Village / Highway or Ironworks / Highway, a lucky third or fourth turn Highway massively swings the game in your favour, whereas if you end up waiting till turn 5 or 6 you're at a big disadvantage.

On the other hand, if Highway cost $4, it'd still be an essential buy for that set, but both players would have the chance to buy one before the first reshuffle. So if Highway was $4 it'd make for less random games.

To counter that, of course, Highway probably WOULD be too cheap at $4. Even if its just a glorified peddler without +buys about, it'd still be too essential a buy in many sets at $4. Even now, its an essential buy in many sets at $5, but its just a card that makes for very luck-based early games.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2012, 08:27:17 am »
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I'd dispute that a $4 Highway is "strictly" better than a $4 average cost Peddler, because Peddler reverts to $8 value once in your deck (which has implications for trash for benefit) and because Peddler can cost a lot less. Also, TR/KC, etc...
Definitely a $4 Highway is probably better card than a Peddler in general, but the phrase "strictly better" should only be used when a card is strictly better in all circumstances.
...which would be to say, strictly speaking, not at all. Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty, trash for benefit, the game-end conditions, and possession make this NEVER the case between any two cards.

blueblimp

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2012, 10:40:07 am »
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I'd dispute that a $4 Highway is "strictly" better than a $4 average cost Peddler, because Peddler reverts to $8 value once in your deck (which has implications for trash for benefit) and because Peddler can cost a lot less. Also, TR/KC, etc...
Definitely a $4 Highway is probably better card than a Peddler in general, but the phrase "strictly better" should only be used when a card is strictly better in all circumstances.

I assume you're referring to my post. That's why I said "in effect, not cost". Obviously there are good aspects to how Peddler's cost works. I was just trying to compare to a "+1 card, +1 action, +$1" card, and Peddler is that card, apart from its cost. The point about KC/TR is good, although since it's only two cards where that matters, I'd just consider it a special case.

I think the phrase "strictly better" usually needs to ignore cost anyway, because otherwise you can't even say something like "once bought, a walled village is strictly better than a village" because hey, a walled village can get swindled to a scout and a village can't.
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Tahtweasel

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Re: Card value: Bridge vs. Highway
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2012, 11:05:30 am »
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Highway at $4 is a nonstarter. Even at $5, it's already responsible for some of the fastest strategies in the game. (WV/Steward/Highway, for example)
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